Episode 1 Transcript: Why Children’s Spirituality Matters

Blessed Uncertainty Podcast

Danny: all right this season of blessed uncertainty focuses on children's spirituality and why it's important to think about the spiritual lives of children and for me personally one of the biggest reasons is just knowing that they are the most vulnerable people group on earth and often overlooked, often underserved, often treated  not full, just small, not full versions of adults instead of their own human beings.

Flo: And so we're going to dive in and talk about why it's important to nurture their spirituality, come alongside them and just help create space for coming close to God together.

Danny: Can you talk a little bit about why that matters to you and your formation and sort of where that grew out of?

Flo: Yeah, I think originally, it kind of originally came out of just wanting to create good art for kids because as a kid growing up, I was exposed to so much good music and good art and wasn't a house where we listened to  kids music.

Danny: We listened to the Beatles and Nancy Griffith and the whatever folk music my parents were listening to on the record player.

Flo: And it was important to me, , I was really actually validated, encouraged as a kid in my hopes and my dreams and As an adult, when I had kids of my own, I wanted those kinds of same, I wanted resources for them that were age appropriate,  music in particular.

Danny: I wanted some kind of, I was thinking at the time, a few friends of mine, we were thinking about scripture music that was age appropriate, but not dumbed down.

Flo: and not silly in a kind of demeaning way.

Danny: And I mean, it's fine to be silly.

Flo: I mean, we both grew up listening to Salty sometimes.

Danny: I was adjacent, so it wasn't in my home.

Flo: It was in mine.

Danny: It was in mine.

Flo: I think that's what I listened to to go to sleep,  just cried in bed listening to First John four, seven and eight.

Danny: That was a good one, actually.

Flo: It holds up.

Danny: It does.

Flo: But as an adult wanting something that was for kids, but  quality,  good music.

Danny: And that's when some friends of mine and I started Rain for Roots, our kids band with children's music.

Flo: And so that was  my kind of stepping stone into , what does it mean to engage with children, to create resources for them, to create art in a way that honors their sensibilities,  their intuitive sensibilities for  good, beautiful, true things.

Danny: And so it was really great to be able to do that and to write the kind of songs and music that as an adult, I would want to keep listening to in my car after the kids got dropped off.

Flo: That was kind of the goal.

Danny: And in kind of that journey, it just kind of touched that on every kind of aspect of a child's life.

Flo: if music, if we want good music for children, why don't we have good other resources for them?

Danny: And so that kind of was the beginning of the journey.

Flo: And going to conferences, honestly,  bringing the music as part of a musical guest at  a children's spirituality conference.

Danny: And then sitting and listening to people who knew and know way more than me and have been in this field a lot longer explain why children's spirituality is so important.

Flo: And kind of reaffirming, looking back on my own life and saying , yeah, I had my own relationship with the divine as a child.

Danny: And how was that acknowledged or nurtured?

Flo: It wasn't necessarily  the music, all the other part that I talked about was, but  not necessarily  the my own spirituality cultivated as , yes, you have access to God in your own way without adult input saying it's right or wrong.

Danny: And a lot of that, I mean, I love your parents, love my parents, but a lot of that input is sort of where things go off the rails with children.

Flo: And a lot of the memories that I have, I think that you share in a friendship that is , oh, this wasn't good.

Danny: And even the motivation For this season, for us to start with children's spirituality is this protectiveness that's counterintuitive.

Flo: It's  protect the children from the adults and what spirituality grows as we leave that place of wonder.

Danny: Yeah, for me, I mean, I was an elementary school Bible teacher for a long time, about ten years, and it was such a redemptive , restorative privilege to get to do that.

Flo: And so much of what I missed out on as a kid in a healthy spirituality, I got to be with kids every day, , preschool through sixth graders contemplating scripture and, , and Jesus and God's love.

Danny: And that was such a, yeah, getting to be a kid again, I think, , , very drawn to St.

Flo: Ignatius Jesuit spirituality.

Danny: One of my favorite details of his life is that when he was going to become a priest, the Catholic Church made him go back and start all over in learning with the people, with children who were being trained and educated to go into the priesthood.

Flo: and his spirituality is so full of wonder and curiosity and imagination and  put yourself in the scene and feel what you feel there and I think that he yeah when I learned that I was  oh he kind of got I got to do what he got to do and I think I didn't go to seminary and I would wouldn't trade teaching the bible to preschoolers for a seminary degree and I value education and all the things but  yeah the things experienced in those places make me very passionate about this as well and the responsibility I felt then one of the things that was a  not an argument but every year they tried to make me grade bible and give the kids grades and i I wouldn't held it up.

Danny: And that felt  a hill to die on.

Flo: ,  this is not, it's not put a great, not a negotiable.

Danny: If Mr.

Flo: B is going to continue to teach the Bible to these kids, , the idea of it may be a kid who has a learning disability who can't achieve in that kind of setting, who has this tender heart for God.

Danny: I'm going to tell him, Hey buddy, you got to, You got to see this semester in the life of Moses.

Flo: You weren't able to answer the question.

Danny: Yeah, I just I feel very protective of those spaces.

Flo: Yeah.

Danny: Imagine Jesus doling out grades to the kids that he was blessing.

Flo: You're an A minus.

Danny: Oh, my gosh.

Flo: Yeah.

Danny: And I bet  I'm assuming you're you talk about how wonderful it was to teach the kids, but  how much you probably learned from them saying things that were such a different perspective or might seem  almost wrong.

Flo: But it's my favorite that comes to mind is it was second grade Bible, I think, and a little boy in the middle of me.

Danny: teaching a lesson.

Flo: I don't even think I was talking about Moses and he raised his hand.

Danny: I called on him.

Flo: I was , Scott.

Danny: And he said, , Hey, when you get to heaven, are you going to teach Moses about us?

Flo: It's amazing.

Danny: , , everybody's , who are they going to visit first?

Flo: I'm going straight to Moses.

Danny: So good.

Flo: Pretty fun.

Danny: One of the questions we're going to ask folks who come on with us this year is, what is your first memory of God?

Flo: I'm curious as you think about that and recall what comes to mind.

Danny: Yeah, I was obviously kind of thinking about this ahead of time and kind of mulling it over, and I have...

Flo: I have kind of a dual answer where there's  the positive and maybe the negative.

Danny: And the negative is more of a, what is my first memory that I would attach that an adult said, this is God to me was praying as a three-year-old.

Flo: I remember it so clearly with a neighbor, my mom and my neighbor and I sitting on my living room floor and praying to accept Jesus into my heart.

Danny: And it was so clear.

Flo: And now I have so many thoughts about that and hesitancies and actually think that's very harmful to children to ask them to make that kind of, or that they even have to make that kind of faith decision, quote unquote.

Danny: But for me, that was definitely...

Flo: this the first memory I have of  of god being somewhere else  god is out here and I have to connect to god somehow and how do I do that I have to ask for forgiveness for my three-year-old crimes and  which you should elaborate on which were many to be fair yeah they were they were  but then if I think of now what I think about what I, what I feel  is coming close to the presence of God.

Danny: Then when I was little, it was every time I was outside and it's very common.

Flo: it's not, it's not very, very unique or special answer.

Danny: It's very, very common with adults to look back and think about your first connection with God being outside.

Flo: And mine was, I would, I grew up in very rural California and just acres of Oak trees.

Danny: And, , and if I were climbing a tree, that's, where I was happy.

Flo: So I was just up in the top of a tree, maybe holding a cat, but definitely, definitely close to  other creatures by myself outside.

Danny: Mine similar in the dual.

Flo: Remember, I mean, I've been thinking about this this week and it took a minute for the positive to come, but all I could think, remember and think about was just feeling responsible.

Danny: And this, I grew up in a Pentecostal offshoot sect.

Flo: And yeah, speaking in tongues was basically everything.

Danny: And I'm a pretty quiet, introverted, observant person.

Flo: And this , theme that until you give over control, it was that James passage where it's  the hardest thing to control is the tongue.

Danny: And so that was why God picked speaking in tongues for us to give over the hardest part of ourselves to tame.

Flo: And then the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost would come into your life.

Danny: And even that, then you were freed in what I grew up in to then try to be perfect.

Flo: So God would love you.

Danny: So there was always this love.

Flo: leveling up  that was it just got more and more difficult as you got closer  and so most of the memories are not of love or acceptance especially looking back  it really is reject I mean rejection and responsibility  and I it was so funny I saw a commercial for hallmark this week and I remembered I was  man who goes to hallmark anymore  to get a card  I always go to walgreens or kroger and and I my brain was in oh yeah people used to go to hallmark for cards and I remember the little precious moments figurines oh my gosh you remember that and I had a poster in my room and it's the little precious moment boy And he's holding a wooden sword and he's got egg on his face.

Danny: And he's clearly been mistreated in a number of ways.

Flo: And it was the we are more than conquerors.

Danny: Oh, wow.

Flo: And I remember especially the egg on his face.

Danny: I remember being a little boy and just knowing there's something more powerful than anything that would want to harm it or come against it.

Flo: And that was a memory that kind of came back through a Hallmark commercial.

Danny: Yeah, just this  faith that protected in this belief that was bigger than whatever might assault it.

Flo: And then also I would just add, , as I look back, it's basketball.

Danny: It really is  it's seeing the Lakers play basketball and seeing Magic Johnson's unselfishness and how I learned more about unselfishness from that and generosity and sharing and wanting something good for someone else than I did twelve hours a week.

Flo: in the group I grew up in.

Danny: And so it's, yeah, just that  finding God in all things and a tree with other creatures that it never stops.

Flo: God never stops.

Danny: And that looking back, there are more positive things that come in, but most of them aren't from the church gatherings.

Flo: Right.

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: Yep.

Danny: I would say, , earlier talking about kind of salty was outside of my house.

Flo: I think there was a lot of church adjacent church influence, but, but, but I do have to say another place I think I found God was, was being held by my mom.

Danny: And I think that has led to so much of  a positive connection to  the feminine side of God that I have still.

Flo: I, I remember asking a group of kids that I was teaching.

Danny: I was, doing godly play with a group of kids and we I told the creation story and then the end you ask  I wonder where you find space to rest because it could look  anything  and one of the fifth graders and  fifth grade girls can be really mean but but but those fifth graders said  in my mother's house and I was just  so compelled and And thinking , what a gift for her to be experiencing God's peace and rest with a safe adult  that.

Flo: But that's similarly how I felt.

Danny: my mom had really long, long, long, long hair and I would just  wrap myself in it and just feel so safe.

Flo: And then it was church and Sunday school where I heard mostly , well, you're a little sinner.

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: So...

Danny: You should have said, you should have seen me before I turned three.

Flo: Before I would say that.

Danny: Oh, man.

Flo: We should probably throw in real quick, if you don't know, Salty is a walking, singing songbook.

Danny: Songbook.

Flo: Saltina.

Danny: Married to Saltina, I think.

Flo: I did not know that.

Danny: But there were these albums called Kids Praise.

Flo: Yeah.

Danny: And they were a big part of flow in my childhood.

Flo: I wasn't allowed to listen.

Danny: You talked about music.

Flo: I, yeah, good music was not allowed around the house.

Danny: My grandpa did listen to a lot of jazz.

Flo: So it wasn't all kids praise, but  rock or anything  really artistic or some sort of, that didn't come until later for me.

Danny: But Salty was , kind of edgy to let into the house.

Flo: And if folks don't know, I grew up in a cult and , yeah, I wasn't allowed to take a cousin when he was probably fifteen or sixteen to a Stephen Curtis Chapman concert.

Danny: So we were outside stuff wasn't allowed in Christian or secular.

Flo: But Salty was a little edgy at my house.

Danny: They let Salty in.

Flo: There might have been the Beginning of the end for the cult.

Danny: But yeah, look up Salty.

Flo: A little, I'm not sure how well the actual character holds up, but there are songs I still feel attached to all these years later.

Danny: As you and I have talked about your job as a children's pastor and priest at St.

Flo: Mary's, both to adults and kids, we've gotten to listen to you and your study, your research.

Danny: I've gotten to read your writing.

Flo: It's been such a gift.

Danny: One of the things as you, as we talk about our memories, good and bad, yeah, you write about this  haunted past.

Flo: I'm curious if you can say more about what is it  to have a haunted spiritual childhood?

Danny: Sure.

Flo: Yeah.

Danny: And I think that's definitely goes with some of my early memories of God.

Flo: And when, , as long as I can remember, ever since I was little, somebody in my family was dying of cancer.

Danny: So  when I was three, both or two, my dad and my sister were diagnosed with cancer at the same time.

Flo: And so  a month apart with totally different cancers, but unrelated.

Danny: But my sister passed away when I was three.

Flo: And one of my first memories of just kind of the reconciling  the spiritual world or  thinking about it was   it was the eighties and adults were trying their best and my parents were trying their best but they didn't tell me my sister died and they didn't I wasn't allowed to go to the funeral I mean people told my parents this is best  yeah and I think even now my mom's  I didn't I didn't know  I didn't think so but this is what the voices were saying and  and so I remember I was washing dishes with my or playing with the bubbles in the sink.

Danny: And my mom was washing dishes and I was standing on the stepstool.

Flo: And I said, , oh, where's Tanya?

Danny: it just occurred to me  I haven't seen her in a while.

Flo: And my mom pointed at the sky and said she's up in heaven with Jesus.

Danny: And I .

Flo: it's  told as a cutesy story now, but it was obviously very traumatic to a three-year-old, but I  stamped my foot and said , but I want her down here.

Danny: And I ran into the room where she would have been and she was gone and it was the bed was made.

Flo: And I remember feeling , this that was probably my first  existential dread moment of  oh  their life is finite  she's not here and at the same time  there's another realm that I felt  suddenly was  opened  I felt  I from then on was  foot in two worlds  heaven and earth kind of a feeling and  as I got older  my parents were pretty open about all of the I don't, different struggles and talking about, they were open about spirituality in a really healthy way.

Danny: And my mom had said that a couple of pastors had told her that she had, the reason Tanya had died or wasn't getting better was because she didn't have enough faith.

Flo: And so I remember hearing that.

Danny: And even though my mom was , that's wrong, , as a kid, you're kind of , well, maybe that would have saved her.

Flo: I don't know.

Danny: And so that was already  a seed that was planted.

Flo: And then, , when my dad was sick He was in and out of remission, but so many people around me, adults, would talk about prayer and prayers for healing.

Danny: And if we pray, , God is the great physician.

Flo: , that was  the frequent phrase was , well, doctors say, doctors give their prognosis, but God really knows.

Danny: And and so I kind of had this feeling of , well, it's going to I really, really thought he would be fine because I felt  God's going to take care of it and we're praying.

Flo: And and so I remember when my mom kind of called me into the hospital, this  supply closet the last time he was in the hospital and said, , this is he's not going to get better.

Danny: I remember feeling  just so shocked because I thought we'd been praying , isn't this what praying is for?

Flo: And, and so kind of thinking of this  elusive Holy ghost or elusive God, that's  sometimes going to answer your prayers and sometimes not.

Danny: And is it your fault that he doesn't or she at the time he , is, is it, is it your fault?

Flo: And is there some kind of , magic formula and so kind of this haunting of what could I have done more spiritually for  my sister and my dad to not have died was  a pretty significant weight on little kid Flo's shoulders for a lot of years.

Danny: And I've heard you talk about then the children blame themselves.

Flo: yes so yeah so can you just why and it's so practical of course I didn't even realize that  I had been asking I met in my research I met with a children's chaplain who actually does play with dying children in the hospital.

Danny: And she said, , I had been saying , gosh, it's so harmful to a person's faith and their view of God and their relationship with God to have had this experience.

Flo: And she said, , actually it's worse than that because it's, it's not just this, the God child relationship that's harmed.

Danny: It's that a child blames themselves when a prayer isn't answered.

Flo: And she said, it's because  developmentally a young kid is so  report card wired is the phrasing.

Danny: So coming back to  grades and , if I, I must have done something wrong if I prayed and it didn't, the outcome.

Flo: Yeah.

Danny: If it was, didn't work I did something wrong because god is god  god can do anything so what did I do wrong in my praying and  yeah it's so sad it's so when I heard that that was really the  impetus  I had been wondering where to go with my thesis writing for my MDiv project, and I knew it was about children's spirituality and I knew it may be about prayer.

Flo: But that was  that was it.

Danny: I was , we can't be this can't continue.

Flo: , we've got to we've got to, , stop this in its tracks and protect children from this theology that is so harmful to the to themselves and to their little spirits.

Danny: even the word ethics around that you're the first person I've heard use the phrase what are the ethics of children's spirituality of children's prayer  and as I look back on how I grew up there was a lot of a kind of morality but I mean  negative less I'm married to a mathematician  whatever Is it negative numbers?

Flo: Yeah, we were in the negative side of zero when it came to ethics.

Danny: And yeah, children were just not protected in any sense, including how to pray or what was healthy.

Flo: You and I have both been in circles that honestly, I guess, yeah, the phrase contempt for children, this thing that comes up often especially in certain theological formulas where the children are just little sinners.

Danny: , if they cry when they're hungry, it's because they're just little sinners.

Flo: Or even if they're maybe angry when they're hungry and feel neglected or left, even if, , they haven't been.

Danny: But, yeah, how do you recognize and help folks who maybe think that little sinners is good theology?

Flo: How do we express that that might actually be contempt?

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: Well, I think first it's important to say, and I've been kind of seeing this, is that it's not contained just to Christian spaces or spiritual spaces.

Danny: And I've been seeing it in even online discourse about , why are children allowed on planes?

Flo: Or , why?

Danny: That's actually my next question.

Flo: Is that bad?

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: Nobody, including the child, wants to be on an airplane with a crying child.

Danny: So I get it in one sense.

Flo: But but there is  this kind of there's been this discourse where it's  people are saying it's not that I don't they'll say things  I just dislike children.

Danny: So I don't want to be around children.

Flo: I just  them.

Danny: And I just always think, OK, I'm not going to say this out loud, but imagine any other people group in that.

Flo: I just dislike blanket.

Danny: people group I just don't  to be around  what  that is wild but it's completely  in some circles  acceptable to say even by some of the folks that would would never say that about other groups of people so it's  fortunately I've seen some pushback about against that but I think it's just important to note because it's culturally it's  everywhere and it's been that way for thousands of years,  children have been, there's been contempt for children.

Flo: And so in the spiritual space, , I've seen that I've definitely heard people say things , yeah, if you, if you ever doubt being born a sinner, just look at a crying baby.

Danny: that.

Flo: I remember that.

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: Whoa.

Danny: they are crying because they need something.

Flo: , or they don't, they're a baby.

Danny: they're literally made to cry.

Flo: , but I, , would push back and point to with and point to, , Mark X, which has really, really, really, really blown my mind the deeper I've gotten into it.

Danny: And, , I think, , most of us know the story about Jesus blessing the children.

Flo: And I've written about this, how it's, , it's one of the most depicted scenes of the New Testament.

Danny: we see it in these  paintings with Jesus holding, holding usually white little blonde children and everyone's smiling.

Flo: And it's just , , sweet and cutesy.

Danny: Basically a picture of when I was a Bible teacher for ten years.

Flo: I'm sorry.

Danny: Go ahead.

Flo: But thinking about culturally at the time, , kids were most people didn't live past thirty.

Danny: Most people didn't live past ten.

Flo: this is a really dangerous, violent time for children.

Danny: And to think about parents bringing it was parents or caregivers or extended family bringing children because they heard that this person was healing and blessing people.

Flo: it, to me, it, it changed it into more of  this desperation.

Danny: I've got, we've got to bring our children to Jesus because they need protection or, , healing or something.

Flo: it wasn't just , okay, kids, , , it was such a, such out of desperation.

Danny: And so when he blesses them, he holds them and he says that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

Flo: And that we have to become  children in order to see and inherit and become part of this kingdom and it seems  such a simple thing to think about but  I remember the first time I read in a commentary about how when Jesus said that he didn't require anything of the children.

Danny: So  nothing was required of them.

Flo: They were not required to say a prayer and ask Jesus into their heart.

Danny: They were not required to have right theology.

Flo: They weren't told to stop crying.

Danny: They weren't called little sinners.

Flo: None of the things that we have seen or projected onto children,  we do with adults,  little altar calls at vbs  none of these things were part of that moment it was it was literally naming that that they were already in inheritors of the kingdom and so be  this  they were made  an example and the most vulnerable disdained people were made examples to the rest of the disciples and and the grown-ups  and so that's my that's become my biggest rebuttal for any, any contempt for kids and spiritually any kind of  kids being sinners.

Danny: , yeah, Jesus didn't say that.

Flo: So.

Danny: And in that, in that imagination space, imaginary, , we would never turn to a child for, to theologize as you write about, can you talk about how in that space, then we can begin to co-theologize with kids?

Flo: Right.

Danny: , yeah and I this was also kind of new terminology to me I've been there's not a ton of research on children's spirituality  over  the history of theology and but in the last maybe twenty years there has been and a lot of people are now writing about it and thinking about it and one of those people is  RL Stoller, Ryan Stoller, who we hope to have on at some point, but he wrote a book about children's liberation theology and talks about co-theologizing with children.

Flo: And, , I really resonate with his, , invitational, hospitable kind of engagement with kids and  some, and Bible stories and saying, I don't, where, where are you in this story?

Danny: What do you think the child felt in this story?

Flo: This, this child that may not have been, they might've just been mentioned in passing, but let's focus on, on the child in the story and ask questions , How do you think they would have felt?

Danny: How do you think the adults felt around this child?

Flo: And just really centering children as part of scripture reading or prayer or any of those activities where a child is normally treated  a little sponge to be filled up with joy.

Danny: Bible or theology,  information.

Flo: And instead being , these are not deficient adults.

Danny: These are people who are having their own experience of God, completely, completely independent of an adult.

Flo: And so what can I, , what can I learn from you as a coworker?

Danny: human,  just on earth about the divine.

Flo: And it's a more, it doesn't mean that we don't offer guidance to children.

Danny: It doesn't mean that we're not , , I've seen  the memes about gentle parenting gone awry.

Flo: And it's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I believe in the gentle parenting, but , it's, it's, , It's just such a more respectful way to treat another human.

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: And it changes salvation from these individual souls that need to be cleaned up to reconciling all of us together all ages all people groups all nations and just this it's together I hear you talk about to be a part of salvation to be a part of the community so those children are coming and being blessed and he's saying welcome them as I welcome them unless you do this  realize you need each other the way these kids need this blessing there's just a yeah holistic redemptive move towards one another in this space.

Danny: How does prayer shift from basically the to the great physician, , this  it being more listening, feeling together, noticing together, what are some things that have shifted in as you've looked more at the ethics of prayer with children?

Flo: Yeah, I was able to do a semester long spiritual direction training with children and learned so much through that training and through working with kids and really, really drawn to the idea of spiritual direction as a more ethical way to invite children into the presence of God.

Danny: That's not giving them adult language anymore.

Flo: for how to interact verbally with God.

Danny: that, that difference is important to me, helping children, , recognize that God is with them and in everything that is good and beautiful and true.

Flo: , as, , Lacey Finn Borgo would say, she wrote a book about children's spiritual direction with and spiritual listening and accompaniment with children.

Danny: And, , just sitting with a child and asking about their week and saying something , what, where did you see beauty this week?

Flo: Where did you, some kids, , don't use God language.

Danny: And so you might just stick to , what was a beautiful or true moment in your week, something that made you happy, maybe even a moment that was sad.

Flo: , how were you, did you ever, did you feel comfort in that moment?

Danny: Did you feel, ,  there was a presence with you,  any of those, that language, instead of saying, , ask God to come fix the problems, especially the problems that are not fixable.

Flo: So I think that is a really.

Danny: good distinction.

Flo: There's, , I even struggle with, and I didn't in my writing and research, I've kind of yet to, to go deeper into this about , there's times when children just spontaneously ask God for things.

Danny: And I wouldn't want to squelch a child's natural, , what they feel  they can say to God.

Flo: I would never be , Oh, don't say that, ?

Danny: , But it's more of  introducing ideas to kids from an adult level.

Flo: And I wrote about this, but thinking about my niece Layla and her mom having terminal pancreatic cancer where there's  a five percent chance of survival of two years and having grownups pray for healing for her in front of my niece felt, I mean,  I just had a visceral reaction to it because of my own experience and knowing  that there would not be a miracle.

Danny: I mean, there, there wouldn't  there's statistics.

Flo: It's  praying for a, an amputated leg to grow back in front of a child.

Danny: there's, it's, unethical to me to do that, to introduce that hope and instead to maybe focus on how God's Holy Spirit is, I think Moltmann says it's the empathy of God and how the spirit, the empathy of God is with us in suffering.

Flo: And so pointing to moments where maybe a child felt less or feels less alone in their grief or their suffering, even through their friends or their other relatives or, or a close awareness with the divine that comes close and just settles.

Danny: I remember when, as a kid, and this is interesting story that I kind of love because it is prayer and it is about a kid asking for something specifically, but right after my sister died, I remember asking my mom for a cat and we had , we lived in the country where people dumped their cats.

Flo: So we had  a dozen feral cats and I was , can we go  without a cat?

Danny: And I think my parents were ,  no  look outside go get a cat but I remember saying  okay I was so little and I was  I'll pray I'll ask god for a cat and I sat on my porch and I prayed for a cat and this cat  literally showed up  that weekend  it was so wild and it walked up  But that that cat for me wound up being  my little it was  so sweet.

Flo: It acted tame.

Danny: It was  not feral.

Flo: I don't know where it came from.

Danny: And it was  my emotional support animal for real.

Flo: And  for me, I think that was such a mercy thing.

Danny: of God.

Flo: And I don't know, I know we can get down.

Danny: I'm  theologically processing in the moment right now being , okay, well, I, , I don't know that my sister could have been saved, but a cat could walk over and  be with me and comfort me and bring me comfort.

Flo: And so I think, I think for me, the most dangerous territory with , the ethical prayer stuff is just praying for things, , are unlikely to happen in front of children and with children and how harmful that is and how that sets them up for all kinds of things.

Danny: But, but focusing more on the, the empathy of God.

Flo: And , for me, that empathy of the Holy spirit was  in that cat,  it was there with me for years.

Danny: And I do think that, Yeah, when the world is bigger, it feels  so much of theology, church world, it's so set in making the world smaller and controllable, maybe even understandable, where that, , the children and what we can imagine being real and are open to the prophetic nature of childhood that can say new things can happen It seems  when the world is bigger, there's more space for death, life, kittens.

Flo: There's just , oh yeah, things can happen.

Danny: And that, yeah, built into so much of the negative of growing up Pentecostal was also this , God can do new things.

Flo: Something can break into the system and disrupt it or turn it over, which ironically is how I left.

Danny: And it was a very Pentecostal experience to leave the Pentecostal sect that I was part of.

Flo: And yeah, as I listened to you, I just hear that it's bigger than we can understand.

Danny: And that's a good thing.

Flo: That's a fun thing and a sad thing, but it's not something we have to control for the kids and maybe, yeah, or for ourselves.

Danny: Yeah, and even when I sit with kids and listen to them tell me where they experience God, it's , when I'm dancing, when I'm petting my kitten, , , these things that are recurring that I think, wow, , what if that had been, what if those connections had been made for me as a kid more explicitly than ever?

Flo: then it was  a separate  those were separate things but the spiritual stuff is when you read your bible or when you pray in the morning  or when you  yeah confess your sins  all of these things are the spiritual life and the dancing and the animals and all of the  life enjoyment was a separate compartment and kids don't compartmentalize  that.

Danny: they don't do that.

Flo: That's an adult thing.

Danny: And so to listen to kids be open naturally, innately to meeting God or the divine in just their moments of their lives that are beautiful for them and wonderful for them And, and on the flip side of that, I would say , even the negative times,  for me, there was a, a spiritual bypassing that comes with compartmentalizing too, to say , well, she's in heaven or he's there in heaven.

Flo: And I wish, , as a kid, there wasn't really language around, , it's okay that this is devastating for you.

Danny: It was more , okay, but we have hope we're grieving with hope when for  a kid that's so abstract.

Flo: And, , and so I think in all of spirituality, I think, and hope as we progress and evolve that we're learning more developmentally appropriate ways to engage with kids that give kids more autonomy.

Danny: , , I don't, that's not going to happen in the more high control, , religions or denominations  it won't  which is yeah heartbreaking I'd love to ask about because I think  when we began you talked about your passion for this is  the most vulnerable people group being children and I think of So much of that high controlled space is often hides itself behind, , our children aren't vulnerable.

Flo: If we are saving for retirement, our children aren't vulnerable.

Danny: If we send them to the best school in town and make the connections that what's the vulnerability of the affluent children.

Flo: or anyone, but yeah, I would say children.

Danny: Right, children in general.

Flo: Especially affluent, yeah.

Danny: Where are the vulnerabilities that might be surprising or hidden?

Flo: Right, right.

Danny: I think there's a real temptation to just look on this outside, especially, I don't wanna generalize too much, but when I see, especially  affluent white Christian, communities with kids, there's this surface level.

Flo: if, if my kid is going to youth group or saying these prayers,  there's  some kind of, , ,  quantifiable measurable,  indicator that their spiritual life is good.

Danny: And that's usually  equated with how extroverted they are and how, , Yeah, outgoing and how much, yeah, maybe how many Bible verses they know and all of those kinds of things when  they could be deeply hurting.

Flo: And this is just part of the culture.

Danny: It's not it's there.

Flo: They're not being.

Danny: the real connections they may be having with God or the divine are not being fostered or cultured or recognized.

Flo: And so I think this kind of sets them up on this path to adulthood where we're just making the same adults who are then doing the same thing to children, which is, I remember my kids went to a camp, a Christian camp, and I had never been to a Christian camp and I went to pick them up.

Danny: Was I the speaker that week?

Flo: I think one of my kids is , I think I know a story where they  turned to their friend was , this is Danny, he always cries.

Danny: Which is so good because it's, you're not the typical camp speaker, I think.

Flo: But they, I picked them up and it was , they were having  a rave to  Christian music.

Danny: And they , We're giving out awards to  character awards.

Flo: And it was  this person really went out of their way to talk to everybody and  lead games and everything is focused on this  extroversion and this  rah, rah, rah,  this  kind of person that  my kids aren't  my kids were introverts and they felt they knew that that was fake and they didn't know how to name it, but it made them really uncomfortable and they didn't want to go back.

Danny: And so I think maybe some of the vulnerabilities and I need probably more time to think about specific other other vulnerabilities, but  a spiritual failing is I think not recognizing the deep and honoring the deep capacity that kids have.

Flo: And instead just being , go dance and talk to people and we'll  give you a spiritual achievement award.

Danny: And then feel bad about it by the end of camp so that God can come and feel bad about it.

Flo: And right.

Danny: , that, that camp might be the only one I've ever been the speaker at, but Yeah, there was always a pressure to, for me, yeah, they're , where's the altar call?

Flo: I don't, I don't do that.

Danny: , I'm not, that's not what I'm here to talk about with them.

Flo: , I think just the vulnerable, if, if, and not everybody's going to agree with this, but I think you and I have come to this place of salvation is all of us together.

Danny: , even the prodigal, , story that  what the father wants is both of his kids at a party, not, , little brother has said, he's sorry.

Flo: And now he can be clean, but I just want you guys at the party together.

Danny: , that heart of God, the vulnerability in that other economy of salvation that really becomes deaf and blind to the suffering of the world.

Flo: And meeting a kid's needs, we're telling them they're sinners when they cry because they're hungry.

Danny: That's going to lead to contempt for hungry children.

Flo: That we can build facades around ourselves in our white painted, literally, private schools.

Danny: And you're just the vulnerability of not being able to hear.

Flo: Yeah.

Danny: Suffering.

Flo: It's , it couldn't be more antithetical to the gospel, to Jesus, to the truth outside of just to be a human, which is back to the spirituality where it's just this invitation to recognize the humanity in this people group.

Danny: And then for us to join one another.

Flo: in there.

Danny: But yeah, when you mentioned vulnerability at the beginning, that was just one of the things that popped into my mind.

Flo: It's, it's so often the folks we wouldn't think of as vulnerable.

Danny: Right.

Flo: Well, and, and even physical vulnerability and other things  that, none of, no one is immune to so many, so many things happening right now on  a national level that are harmful to children.

Danny: And it's , if it's harmful to the least of us, it's harmful to all of us on some level.

Flo: And , as we know, living in Nashville, horrifically, that affluent kids are not immune from gun violence.

Danny: Affluent kids are not immune from harm of LGBTQ kids.

Flo: They're probably not going to be talking much about their identity.

Danny: And so they're at risk for all kinds of all kinds of stuff.

Flo: And so that, that doesn't protect them.

Danny: Actually does the complete opposite, right?

Flo: Puts them in, in a kind of danger.

Danny: Anything that feels just a practical, what are practices for home?

Flo: What are practices for adults?

Danny: What are practices for church that can cultivate and nurture these spaces?

Flo: I love talking about this, especially with caregivers, because man it's so hard to be a caregiver in the age of social media and  having a million voices tell you what to do and how you're doing it wrong and  and  and especially oh gosh  in the evangelical Christian space,  the book publishing world and  the devotionals.

Danny: And there's just  no end to resources you could get that are going to tell you how to sit and have a twenty minute devotional with your kid when  that's not what you need.

Flo: And so I think I work so much with tired parents and especially post pandemic,  nobody nobody has time anymore,  to do these things.

Danny: We're so tired and there's so much going on.

Flo: And so I think being able to point to caregivers,  easier ways that they can maybe it's  a first step of , if you're, if you're wondering how to engage in, in  ethical spiritual practices or fourth faith formation with your kids to just point to ways that it's already happening.

Danny: And so that there's, an alleviation of guilt and stress.

Flo: And on the positive side, you're pointing out that these are connections with the divine.

Danny: So you are doing something.

Flo: And so that could look  you're on a walk and you see a beautiful bird and you just point at it and say, look,  it does not have to be big.

Danny: You don't have to say, did  that there's a verse about birds and God made them?

Flo: And you don't have to  go into all of that.

Danny: , it can just be as simple as , that made my heart happy.

Flo: And , that's it.

Danny: And , maybe that'll come back later and you revisit that and you unpack that as you get older, as they get older.

Flo: But I think, I mean, , I listened, I heard a podcast with a young adult author once who said that somebody asked him why he's a writer and he said because his dad pointed the birds out to him and he said it was  just the practice of noticing and how writing is  noticing and I thought that was so beautiful and I think that's so much  spiritual practice is to say  start with noticing the beautiful good and true things around you and then you're noticing where God is and so that's no small thing  that's opening up your world  you were saying to a bigger bigger space.

Danny: And then I, and then for churches, , I think that intergenerational worship and being as intergenerational as possible.

Flo: One of the things I learned in my spiritual direction course was that  one of the number way, number one ways a child knows and feels love is being listened to.

Danny: And they're  never listened to by adults.

Flo: And so, Even just having older folks in your congregation who know this, it doesn't take a big training or a lot of money to teach a congregation how to engage intentionally with kids.

Danny: And just listen.

Flo: A kid might run up and tell you about what they did that day.

Danny: And that's literally being the love of God to a child.

Flo: It's not that hard.

Danny: And it's, it's so much more joyful and real and, , yeah, back to maybe where we started of this, these first memories of being told God's out there.

Flo: , you've got a door that he's knocking on.

Danny: I was , what?

Flo: Can I close it other time?

Danny: , is it just, does it knock or is it just him?

Flo: , It's , it's not out there.

Danny: Jesus, the kingdom of heaven is with you, among you, within you, and not out there.

Flo: And just that freedom, that joy to receive the kingdom together through this meal.

Danny: There's a story, this is  another,  probably rule we're breaking, but there's a little girl, so there's  these sisters, were being baptized and their parents  didn't grow up in a tradition where children were baptized.

Flo: One of them did.

Danny: I don't remember exactly, but they decided to baptize their kids.

Flo: But the kids weren't  babies.

Danny: So they were, , and I don't know if you remember this story, but the big sister was baptized.

Flo: And then it was  the little sister and she was , no, no, , don't.

Danny: This isn't going to happen.

Flo: And I remember we did it.

Danny: I did it.

Flo: No, we're not going to do this today.

Danny: And I remember how many people came up to me afterwards and were , thank you for respecting the boundaries of this kid and not forcing them into this experience.

Flo: And that kid does receive communion.

Danny: so there's a rule there that's being broken I think   sabbath for man not man for sabbath I think even the eucharist  this is for people yeah and yeah just that space of following the children and then receiving it together and  you reckon a status is already there in the eyes of god Let's just enjoy that together, which again, the Psalms are full of this.

Flo: You're my satisfaction.

Danny: I don't need anything because you're my shepherd.

Flo: Not because I let you in through the door when you knocked.

Danny: Right.

Flo: But just this, it can be a given that this love is always there.

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: You've taught me a lot about that.

Danny: I'm grateful for your friendship and the way you serve us.

Flo: This was our first conversation.

Danny: attempt at one of these.

Flo: How do you feel?

Danny: I feel  we did okay.

Flo: Yeah, I think we'll get, I think we'll, I think we'll get, I think it'll get better as it goes, but this was great.

Danny: Yeah.

Flo: Thank you very much.

Danny: It was a joy.

Flo: All right.

Danny: Signing off.

Flo: A good commentary to read more.

Danny: No, go outside and look at a bird folks.

Flo: That's what we're going to leave you with.

Danny: Yep.

Flo: All right.

Danny: Bye-bye.