Episode 7 - Godly Play with Mother Monica Coakley

Flo: Welcome to Blessed Uncertainty, where faith is a wide and wandering path. Our guest today is Monica Coakley, a priest, prison chaplain, and a fellow Godly Play storyteller. And a quick PSA: Godly Play is a methodology and a way of helping children learn the tools of meaning-making through play and wonder, and presenting sacred stories from Scripture in a way that honors their own inherent spirituality. I use Godly Play in my own community of children.

Flo: And Monica brings Godly Play into her prison ministry with men on death row. It's powerful and profound, and another way to dignify and honor people who are often dehumanized. So we talk about her work there, my work with children, and the similar ways that wonder is a gift to all of us. Thanks for listening.

Danny: Mother Monica Coakley. That sounds like a nursery run. We can write that later. That'll be the bonus episode if you can email us your nursery ideas. Mother Flo Oaks, Mother Monica Coakley. Like, this feels like three priests walk into a podcast. Beginning of a joke. Yeah. Really thankful you're here. Thanks for being with us. I'm thankful that you asked me.

Well, both you and Flo do work quite a bit in different places, also with children. Both of you have that overlap, but you were at River Bend. Curious, how do you all describe godly play? And Monica, I'll ask you first. Give everybody kind of an introduction to what godly play is.

Monica: Hmm. Okay. So for me, godly play is much more than a children's formation or education program. It's really a spiritual program in spirituality for children, is how I view it. And although it was developed in the context of children, the tools are just broadly applicable across the lifespan. You know, from children to adults at all stages, including, you know, towards the end of life. I've not done a lot of work myself with people with dementia, but a little bit using Godly play with that group as well.

And there's just so much richness there that the exploration can happen at any stage in life. As far as the nuts and bolts of what it really means, it's, to me, similar to Ignatian spirituality, where you are putting yourself in the story and exploring it from there, where we are in the story of salvation and the story of grace. And that comes through in all those little stories throughout the Bible. Mm-hmm.

Danny: Thank you. Flo, anything you'd add?

Flo: Yeah, I think I've mostly really just done it in the context of children, really young children. So I did teach it to middle schoolers for a little bit, but I mostly use Godly play with really young children. And for me, it's about giving young children spiritual language. So, like, the tools for meaning-making too. And it's less about, well, it's not at all about, like, a verbatim or didactic, like, here is the story and what it means at all, let alone what it means for your life. It's more about here's the story and I wonder what you make of it. And so giving kids, honoring that kids can enter into that space theologically, even as little as three and four.

And then, in some profound ways at three and four and profound ways at 12, that is giving them those tools to be able to engage with scripture and stories and ways of faith that are authentic to them and that help them in their lives in a way that I think is even I don't even love the word practical- but it's even more practical than some kind of, like, Bible study where you learn what someone else thinks this should mean for you. It's beautiful, it's invitational, and it's fun. I always have fun with my kiddos doing it.

Monica: I I love that foundational premise in godly play that that we all have an innate spirituality, including children. The children are born knowing God. And so we aren't pouring into them. We're just helping to to fully bring it out what's already there.

Flo: Have you seen the godly play story of child spirituality, or have you done that story? I don't think so. I only just saw it at this godly play retreat or conference gathering that I got to go to in the summer. And and it's just like what you were saying. Like they take a pitcher and they're like, This is not, this is not, we're not filling up the child with with knowledge or facts or even like some kind of faith that we are imparting onto them. They're not sponges. They're not empty vessels. And they empty out this pitcher and it's just full of all these little like all these little gadgets and trinkets and things that it's like this is the child comes to the world with all of these things that are part of them. And then it's just beautiful because it goes on to to use those parts, those pieces in the story. But I love that visual.

Monica: Sounds beautiful. Yeah.

Danny: Wonder is such a key component in Godly play. I'd love to hear both of you talk about what is wonder to you. How do you, like what a what an awful thing to ask you to define wonder. You don't have to —this is not a test. I I really would just love to listen and in a sense I I truly wonder how you all describe wonder.

Monica: It feels like a task. Because you're right. It's so hard to define. It's to me, wonder is open ended exploration. It's creating a safe place where we make meaning, where we find meaning, where we make connections. And that that's where the magic always happens, is when we just step back and and let let people wonder for themselves.

Flo: I'm always I'm always gonna go probably a little too much of my feelings route.

Danny: Also where the magic happens!

Flo: But I I think for me and it to experience wonder, it's easier for me to maybe use examples of how it feels for me and where it feels for me is like, we just went to this concert a couple weeks ago, and to hear all of these people singing the same song that has been meaningful to them from this band for the last 20 years, it was just like that that feeling of something bigger than you. And I feel that in music, I feel that in nature, I feel that in other people and being around other people and the curiosity that's there of like—What could this mean? I think for me is wonder. And even I guess going back to like a more practical academic description of children's spirituality is their relationship with self, others, and God or the divine or whatever you language you want to use for that. And so there's a lot in children's spirituality language of their spirituality being them connecting with something bigger than themselves. And for me, that's where wonder happens is, this is bigger than me, or I'm connected to this beautiful thing in this way. And and it just makes me feel, I remember one other example, I was at the wonder for me, this might wonder for me is are things that like sometimes even as a Mother Flo, priest, I'm like, I have a hard time believing that it's all true. You know, like is is there, is there, is the trajectory really justice and goodness and, and is God real? Like it's just, it's the existential world that I I live in a lot. And the things that remind me or or help me believe that it is true, those are the places I feel wonder. So like music ,and when we were at the zoo and I saw a monarch butterfly chrysalis that was like mint green with tiny dots around gold dots that looked just like gold leaf painting and and so those are moments for me of wonder for sure.

Danny: Thank you. Flo mentioned mostly during godly play with with kids, some with middle schoolers. Monica, you mentioned some withelderly folks? Or you said with dementia. Can you tell us the places you have been able to invite people into godly play?

Monica: Sure. So I I started in Godly play with children. And what what what drew me into godly play, we were my family and I were at a church that was fairly new for us. And it was a very tiny church. And so had a very small children's program. All different ages of kids, but not even enough to fill up a classroom. And they were using a curriculum called the one room schoolhouse. And and it was just a lot of crafts and and songs and more entertainment than education. And my experience where we had come from before that was a a Catholic parish where it was very much education driven and reading and memorizing and tests and quizzes and things like that. And my kids have special needs. And so they they were not thriving in that sort of academic environment, but they also weren't thriving in sort of the education, the entertainment as education environment either. So we were looking for something new. And someone pointed me towards Godly Play as being a good fit for kids with special needs. And wow, did it really hit the mark for us. It was just a a beautiful transformation, not just for my kids, but for our church, to have this this new way into into children's spirituality.

So so I I started out doing godly play with with my kids and with the other kids in the church there. And after we moved to Tennessee, started it again in another parish, again with children, had an opportunity to to do godly play with my my own daughter in the hospital. So I got to see what it's like working with sick children firsthand working with her. And then, you know, pretty soon after that, started to use it in my women's Bible study group. That was my first time using it with adults. Used it with women on retreats, on retreat weekends.

And and then eventually in prison using it with with men who have pretty much all of them have trauma backgrounds. And that was what where I first made the connection that this might be a good fit was because of the trauma aspect of of their histories. But then also once I moved from more generic prison ministry to death row, in that context, I was working with some men, some of whom had dementia and some of whom who have intellectual disabilities. So I've in those different settings, I've had a lot of different experiences with Godly Play. I

Danny: I’m curious, what are what are similarities between the different age groups? All of the differences, right? Just a Sunday school room to a, you know, a room on death row. Like what are similarities and what are differences in in doing Godly Play with these different or even wondering. What we've said this is not a godly play commercial, right? So sponsored by Godly Play. But yeah, and wondering in those spaces, inviting people into themselves finding the meaning in it and theologizing. Yeah, sort of what are differences and similarities in those spaces?

Monica: One of the constants I I find is the the way that it ignites imagination. That it that and through imagination we we can sort of make friends with mystery instead of being afraid of mystery, instead of being afraid that we don't understand something, in instead of, you know, being threatened because we think we need to know the right answer, you know, we get comfortable with mystery and and once we feel comfortable with mystery, then the imagination part just really blossoms and takes off. And and one of the things that I find when I'm working with adults in in any age category or teenagers, is that once you once you get that hook where their imaginations are triggered, where, where they feel that safety and they start to explore, it doesn't feel like play anymore. It doesn't feel childish.

It was it was it was a strange experience the first time I've laid out a godly play parable for a man covered in tattoos, wondering how he's gonna react to this. It's a retelling experience. And there's some skepticism there. But once you get the hook, it's not about the cartoonish pictures in front of you anymore. It's it's about the exploration and the wondering and the imagination. And that's and that that's where, well, again, that's where the magic happens. That's where where people, when they feel safe, that's when they they can truly grow spiritually.

Danny: Do you find that people trust you more as you lead with your own wonder? Even walking into a space like that with I want to learn with you and from you rather than here's what I know about the Bible and I'm going to hand it to you. Yeah, that's such a I mean, yeah, disarming of everyone, right?

Monica: Absolutely. One of the things that I I find in prison is that so many of these men have read the Bible over and over and over again and have taken many Bible study classes. And but they they they come in sort of armed with all of this what they think is knowledge. Like, you know, I've read this so many times and I've got these things memorized and I've done all these courses, but they come into it with this mentality of what's right and what's wrong. Or what I should say, what's correct and what's incorrect. And do you hold the correct view? And do you agree with me that this is the way you should this or that? And when you can step away from that and say, well, let's let's stop talking about, you know, what some of these strange things might be in the Old Testament and whether I think this is literal or not. Like like let's move away from that stuff and just talk about what does it mean to you? Like, you know, where are you in this story? And we know, what does this tell you about your relationship with God? And what does this tell you about God's relationship with you and with your relationship with other people? That's where the disarming happens is when you when you say, let's let's talk about us instead of this book on the shelf.

Danny: I remember a little girl one time in a weird dude godly play with the whole community and I think it was the transfiguration and Flo is like, you know, I wonder what you see in it in Small Girls, like, I it's weird. Just the permission that we all have to be honest in those spaces and what opens there. For both of you here, again, what's the difference between childish and childlike? Also not a test. And I have a dictionary and I'll tell you if you're right or wrong.

Monica: Okay. Childlike is trusting. Childlike is exploring. Childlike is is is openness. Is wonder. I mean wonder is childlike. Childish is I don't know, it feels less productive. It feels Childish is is only something you would say about somebody who's not a child. Mm-hmm. But not in a good way. Anybody come to mind. That's the next one. Also, there's a right answer. What do you think, Flo? What do you think?

Flo: Well, it was so funny that you said that because I was thinking exactly along those lines, which was, you say, childish when you're describing something negative someone's doing, but they're an adult doing it. So how is it childish? You're just an adult behaving badly. And so I was thinking about that- how interesting it is that that is, yeah, you don't tell a child you're acting childish, but you tell it to an adult and childlikeness,

Yeah, I think it's like an openness and a willingness to maybe not take yourself so seriously, because they're just- especially, I think you've probably experienced this when you tell godly play stories to kids versus adults. The kids are like, I wonder what this could be. And the kids are like, I think it's a lemon. I think it's a tennis ball. And adults just sit there. And you're like, you can guess.

Like, you can play with this, and they just don't want to be wrong. And I think that that's one big difference between being childlike is just a willingness to, like, be yourself and to bring your whole self to things and to be curious. Childish feels like the opposite; like you're cutting off curiosity.

And you know, maybe that's expressed in anger or selfishness towards someone. Again, I feel like it's so unfair to say childish because usually when children act that way, it's because they need something. It's an outside and they're they're learning about self-awareness and all of these things. And we say it for adults. It there should be another way. We should tell kids you're acting adultish sometimes. I don't know. That's not good either. But I feel like there's like it's not fair to use that word in derogatory ways towards kids when they're just being human. And I think to be childlike is to just be human too.

Monica: Yeah. I another aspect that I was trying to find the words for for childlike is to lack a certain amount of self-awareness. And what I mean by that is to not not be so caught up in how we look to other people to not be so self-conscious. But to fe to have a certain level of security where you can say things without being afraid of being wrong or being afraid of what other people are gonna think about you, which, you know, unfortunately for a lot of kids, they don't, you know, they quickly lose that sense of safety and learn to self-edit and self-censor. And one of the beauties of godly play is it helps to keep that alive in a safe space for a lot longer.

Danny: I think it's fascinating the idea that childish is less productive. That just that phrase less productive, that the childlike wonder and lack of self absorption and all of those places, it's, like really things can get done. The irony of yeah, the or the paradox in those spaces of this is actually a better way to do things. So wonder together and be vulnerable.

Yeah. What is it— it's ignation, right? Another way of proceeding, I think is one of the things St. Ignatius was was in search of again to both of you. Yeah, is there what's your what's the one you resonate the most with? Is there a story that you're extra excited when it's the one?

Monica: Hmm. Always the parable of the Good Shepherd. Always. Although I will I will say that my favorite stories to tell when I'm in a godly playroom are the the stories where in the wondering you you get to ask the kids, I wonder if there's anything else in this room that reminds you of this story. And then you get to see these amazing connections that as grown-ups we just lose the ability to perceive. And and you know, but watching them pull all of this stuff together. And that it also is so satisfying to see that they remember all those other stories that you told them and that they held on to those pieces. But but for me, definitely the the parable of the Good Shepherd and it resonates so much with both kids and and adults.

I had a a personal experience with with the story of The Good Shepherd that that was life changing for for me and much as I loved godly play before, you know, from that point on, it just became central to my life when when my daughter was the first time she was in the hospital for her kidney disease, she was about ten years old and this took us by surprise. We didn't know that she had kidney disease. So she was very sick. And people from church came to visit, other people came to visit and wanted to know, you know, what can we bring you from home?

And so she told the folks from church that she wanted to have godly play in the hospital. And so they they came in the next time with a dolly stacked high with with stories for her to to explore with. But she only wanted to hear one story and it was the parable of a good shepherd. And there was a chaplain at the hospital who knew godly play. So she told it to her the first time, but then after that I I was on duty and she had me tell her that story almost as many times as we had to watch the one video that we had of Tom and Jerry. We we we must have told that twenty five times over the course of a few days. But what what I saw happening is that she was making that story her own. Like she didn't understand what was happening to her, even though she was 10 years old developmentally. She was closer to five years old because of her disabilities. And and so she's trying to make meaning of of being so sick and being in the hospital. And and she got to this place where this was her story. You know, she knew which of the sheep she was. And and she she got to a place where she felt safe, not because she knew she was gonna be better.

Because she didn't know that she was gonna get better. But she knew that she was safe because she had a shepherd who was with her and and that her shepherd wasn't gonna let her go. And it it was the most beautiful transformation, to to see that happening. And she came home and she decided that she was gonna be a shepherd. And and she now has a an obsession with sheep. We have other farm animals, but not sheep. But she continues to hold out hope that we'll have sheep one day because she wants very much to be a shepherd.

Flo: Yeah. Has she have you seen or has she seen the Kelly Lattimore icon of the good shepherdess? Yeah, I feel like I'm at a commercial. Not sponsored by…I think I think Danny got I think you got this for me for graduation graduation is that a candle.

Monica: I haven't seen it on a candle before.

Danny: Brought to you by Star Wars Aristide Development Robinhood and the project I think that's all of our product places Flo, what story is your one of my favorite? I

Flo: have just it's hard to pick, but one of my favorites is the one I got to tell this week in, and I work at a school and at church, and so I got to tell this particular story one, two, three, four, five, six times this week. It's like my favorite story is The Great Family. And I think it's probably also because it's one of the first ones. There's something about the one of the first ones you ever have heard someone tell, which was the Good Shepherd and the Great Family. Like those two are so special to me. But that one, I think just seeing like moving Abraham and Sarah around the desert and then seeing their footprints in the sand, like in this big, vast desert, and that they the story script goes, you know, they were learning that God was not just in one place, but that all of God was in every place. And so God was not just here or here or here, but God was in all these places. And I think just to see it happen and unfold in real time, where they real they're coming close to God in all these new places. And then asking the kids what your favorite part is, or where are you in this story, and hearing kids say, that God is every in every place. It was like, something they connect with is it's like to me that's like the whole point. Like yes, like that's okay, we can shut it down. Let's just take it into this story every week. Like that's how I feel when I hear that.

Last night I got to tell it in our in at church. And when we dismiss our kids to go into Eucharist in the big church, which is not that much bigger than our children's room. But when they dismiss, this is a little a little thing I got from Lacey Finn Borgo, which is giving them a blessing on their hand with like chapstick and calling it blessing bomb and giving them each a blessing. And so sometimes I word the blessing like attach it to the story somehow. So last night I was saying, you know, always remember that God is that all of God is in every place and God all of God's love is with you in every place and this little girl laughed and said, “I know that!”

And I just like as she left and I loved it because I it was just like silly. Like that that's it was like it's so and it was so funny, but it's also just I loved it because it's like, that's like just such part that's not profound to her in this moment because it's just a given. It's her reality. And I love that.

Danny: I mean, those are my two, the good shepherd. And I love just how long it takes. We've had that one two or three times in like Sunday worship where the the kids everybody's together in the Good Shepherd. And I it's it's to just take so long. And and it just sheep after sheep who make the journey. I was sitting by a guy one time and another sheep came out who was like behind a rock, right? There's like a hidden sheep at one point, or somebody's behind something. I don't remember, but this guy goes, There's another one? And it’s just so inefficient and the room has to just sit and wait. And it's such a gift pushing back against we are here to move from A to B as quickly as possible.

And then the yeah, the Great Family. Just the sand too and like seeing it poured out. And for me the the connection and that was the first one I had heard. Those were the first two I heard as well, but yeah, the the promise of like you'll have more children than the sand in the desert and just how annoying sand would have been. And that this thing that is, you know, in your in your shoes, in your tent, in your bed, it's part of the promise too. And I just yeah, I would have I don't think I would have ever thought about that with a commentary.

Flo: I remember I think we both heard that at the same training. So at the same time. And I remember you saying that and talking about like every time he would have felt this annoying sand being reminded of a promise. And like that was I was like, whoa, yes, those are the connections you make when you hear the story that way.

Danny: Just right. As somebody's like dropping sand into a box. It's it's such a gift to enter the stories those ways. Monica, I'm curious, you do these stories you do this way of wondering and playing with men on death row. What might people be surprised in that experience?

Monica: So what what surprises me is how how quickly and easily people get drawn in. It it is it is not something that that these guys have shied away from at all. The the first time that I well the first few times that I I told stories, it was just when I was working one on one with with a man who was in solitary confinement. And so there, you know, it wasn't visible to other people. We were just kind of doing it privately. But the first time that I brought it out in the open in Tennessee on Death Row, the the the general rule is that most of the guys have some freedom of movement and can congregate in this like general pod area.

And so the first time I told a story in in that setting, it was with a man who has a significant intellectual impairment. But all these other guys came around who wanted not just to watch, like not just being voyeuristic or or nosy, but they wanted they wanted in. They wanted to be part of the conversation. That that that particular story that I'm remembering was when I did the it was a creation story. And and everybody wanted to say which day day was their favorite. And everybody had something to contribute about.

You know, which day would God have found to be the hardest? And are these days, you know, really in the right order? And are there any days that are missing? It was it was really it was so engaging. And and so that was that was pleasing. It was surprising and it was pleasing. There's so much that's surprising about doing godly play on death row.

Yeah, I I used the word magic a couple of times before. And and I I find that to definitely be true in this context as well, where, you know, men who have these layers and layers of of trauma experience and and kind of stunted experiences with religion and spirituality. It's not that you have to speak to them in a childish way. It's coming to them in a from a different place, coming to them from a place of invitation, coming to them with a story where they're invited in in a gentle way, in a non confrontational way, you're able to get to places that you would never be able to get to before.

Because it's not a facade of safety. It really is a safe place. And so once they're able to experience that safety, they can lose some of those external layers and really open up in a way that has just transformed the relationship. And with Ministry on Death Row, safety and trust are the most important components of that. And can be the most difficult pieces to build. And so I've been excited to see how godly play can actually help accelerate that because it does create that sense of safety in a way that's authentic, but doesn't take years to build.

Flo: I was thinking about how godly play is so equalizing and dignifying of people. So I think even like thinking of how it was modeled, like the model for children, is like children are so much on the margins and on the outside and vulnerable that it's a way to invite them into co-theologizing that they're not given those opportunities otherwise. And it's, you know, I always feel like it's an honor to learn from the kids, not in a precious, patronizing way, but truly. Like, I'm hearing what a child has to say about this sacred story. This is important. And I can imagine there's a similarity with working with men on death row who are so dehumanized. And anything I mean, in anything you would hear in media, would be so disparaging, so dehumanizing. And to be able to receive from them in a way that, like you were saying, it's authentic. It's not it, it's equalized. We're all theologizing together. I think that's so beautiful and, you know, echoes another—just like it's a way of being invitational to children who are on the margins, it's a way of hearing the voices of these men who are on the margins and just a picture of the true kingdom of God where everyone's voice is truly equal.

Monica: That is beautiful. That is a wonderful way to describe it. And I think, you know, it's equalizing, as you said, in a sense that everybody's getting a little bit vulnerable in the conversation. And that vulnerability is so important because they are in a place where they cannot be vulnerable. They, they, they just can't allow that to happen. And if you cannot be vulnerable, how can you surrender to God? How can you be in that vulnerable, trusting place with God if you're constantly wearing this tough exterior? So being able to rehearse being vulnerable in this, you know, discrete setting, I think leads to so much spiritual growth because they're finally able to be childlike with God.

Danny: There's something I don't I'm not sure I can articulate this, what I'm trying to say, but I would love to hear you all speak to it. That so much of spirituality when I hear people like Richard Rohr and Thomas Merton; they talk about it as unlearning. And there's something in godly play that it seems like it gets to skip the unlearning and really moves into the place of the kingdom of heaven is within you. See it like a child. And it it's it's not—it I the does that make any sense? Would elaborate on in that?

Flo: Yeah, I'm thinking as far as the the having to unlearn. I mean, I think about that as a children's minister all the time: the narratives we give children with adult language, they have to unlearn because it's not their own language, first of all. Like it's not their own owning of of how of how that story is in their life and how that works for them. But also I think I don't know I processing out loud but I think in in especially in Western white evangelical Christianity, the way the stories are told to us have been harmful a lot of the times growing up. I have to remember sometimes when I'm telling godly play stories to kids that they didn't experience Scripture in that way. So they don't have a lot of times, they don't have that same baggage anyway. But but the stories are, yeah, I think they're invitational in a way that you don't have to unlearn because of the meaning-making element of it's teaching you the tools to make meaning of a story for yourself. And those tools might change and grow as you grow. I think maybe that it's that it's okay to unlearn some things and learn them over again. And so maybe godly play is a way of practicing that.

Monica: Yeah. I don't think I would say that that, at least in my context, I don't think I would say that that you skip the unlearning, but I think it it sets the stage for it and just kind of presumes that that's what we're gonna do. You know, so so you know, you may think you know the right answer, or maybe you've been told all your life that this is the answer, but in the way that I'm going to express this wondering question, it's going to presume that there's mystery. And it's gonna presume that there is no right answer. And so, therefore, you know, we get to start with a fresh slate.

Flo: Yeah. And these wondering questions, I think that was, like, key in my training and learning about this, is that they're not it's not a wondering question if there is a right answer. Then it's not fair. Like you're not fishing for an answer from kids if or anyone. This is a wondering question is truly an invitation to wonder, or else it's not—It's not a wondering question.

Danny: And I think Monica, one of the words you used earlier, I think in connection to childish childlike is the connection and just this how this starts with and even the the faith it takes, the trust it takes to say we will connect in this wonder and become more humane, which again on death row, the assault on humanity in those spaces, the violence aimed at those men. Literally, right? This telling them this is how it ends and it's violence from us because you're not one of us to to see the nonviolence of of literally play begin to soften those spaces is is really just wonderful.

Monica: There's there are so many layers of of trauma that these men have experienced, starting from their their childhood. You know, all the way through to their treatment by the legal system and and then the the the day in and day out treatment within the prison. And then you have this this span often you often have this span of decades of just waiting. You know, dealing with the the courts and all the uncertainties, the ups and the downs, but for the most part you're just waiting for, you know 30 years to be executed. And and that that time can be a time of of of growth and of of renewal, of of finding something new, finding a new way. And that that's one of the things I see in Godly Play is that you we can have these conversations that take you back to sort of that that beginning place.

Let's start over again. Let's let's let's let let's renew the mystery. Let's renew the wonder. And then from there, we can rebuild your relationship with God and so that you can see yourself in a new way. And and so it just it restores the dignity in a way that is, I'll use the word again, magical. It it it and it does it in a way that is in full view. Like, you know, it doesn't, and in that way. Pope Francis gave a sermon to a group of priests about evangelization. And he you know, he made the point that we don't proselytize, that that, you know, true evangelization is evangelization by attraction. And and I've seen that happen with this, that when when people see what happens with these discussions, when they when they experience second hand the wondering, they want in. They want to be part of this experience. And and that's it's exciting.

Flo: As you were talking, I was thinking about how, gosh, it grieves my heart so much when I hear people use dehumanizing language about men who are in prison and on death row. And I think I always have the thought, always, that was somebody's little boy once. Like, that was a little boy. And I always, always have that thought. And as you are talking about your work, it just makes me think like you are honoring that little boy and saying to this grown-up, like that that part of you isn't gone. That didn't go away. Like that's that's still who part of who you are. That childlike innocence and wonder and goodness is still a part of you, not just that it was in the past. And I think godly play and what you're doing really honors that in a beautiful way.

Monica: And you know, again, the trauma histories, one of the effects of that is that for so many of these men, their maturity and their development were halted, you know, because of their environments and because of the trauma they experienced. And so, you know, for some of them, this experience of wondering in a childlike way is brand new. Like it's not something that they ever would have experienced.

Danny: Wow. The word innocence. I j I don't know. That's- I'm really trying to spend a lot of time in innocence right now and just remember what Flo just said about every person who's frustrating me these days, on whatever level that is, people I know, people I don't. Yeah, to remember that innocence. And then to think, Monica, in this context of what it would mean to receive innocence or wake up to innocence, as you have been reduced to an incident where you were not innocent. Which, yeah, what a gift. Even just Jesus saying, Follow me and whatever you lose, you'll get it, you know, what is it, like thirty, sixty, ninety, I I or sixty, ninety, a hundred. I don't remember exactly how he multiplies. But you have to think of someone getting innocence back. It is really beautiful.

Monica: There's a phenomenon that I've seen in a number of men in prison, not just on death row, but in other parts of the prison, you know, w when they're there for all this time, they have time to work on themselves. Yeah, I'm not the first one to draw that out in people, you know, that work has been happening in prisons.

And some of them choose to change their names i in dramatic ways, just dramatically different names. But I find that practice to be just beautiful. And it does remind me of the baptism story where we have candles, which, of course, candles in prison, but that story recognizes the sacredness of name and—

Flo: I and the light, everyone gets their own candle, and their name is named.

Monica: Yeah. I wish that we had some kind of ritual in the prison for that where these men can kind of claim their new identity. Because they've earned it. You know, when they've done all that hard work on themselves.

Danny: We're coming up on the end. I don't want to keep you too long. I have two sort of directions. One is, one of the beauties of this is the Bible has been used so often to wound in a violent way, to, you know, truly, like, beat people into submission or into a corner of what the right way to believe is. This wondering space, all of these stories we've talked about are from scripture. How is this a way where you kind of receive the gift of scripture again? Or I don't know if give it back is the right word, but it feels like that to me.

Monica: I think of this sort of in tandem with one of my other activities at the prison, which is education for ministry. EFM is a program out of the University of the South at Sewanee for adult formation. And the person who introduced me to EFM told me it was like godly play for adults. And I think what she meant by that is that, you know, you explore scripture from a new place that is open-ended, that does honor the mystery in it. And so we've had an EFM class on death row for a few years now, reintroducing them to scripture with the inclusion of the mystery element and the inclusion of a wondering element where people make meaning of it for themselves. Not like, not that we all get to pick our own interpretation of the Bible, like, you know, where we can just make stuff up out of nowhere, but to really be invited to engage instead of being told what this means, to be invited to engage with it so that you can discover what it means. That discovery process is such a gift because it never ends.

Because every time, just like with a godly play story, I know one of the things that some of the kids used to complain about was, " We already heard this story last year. Well, no, you're a different person this year. So you hear the story again and it might mean something different to you this time. And so I feel like that is really on display when we use these stories. In prison, whether it's EFM or Godly Play, that, you know, what does it mean to you today? What meaning do you see here based on your life experience to this day?

Danny: Flo, anything in that space of scripture being a gift?

Flo: Yeah, I mean, I think I've just heard it with my volunteers that I get, you know, there's storytellers, and there's doorkeepers and godly play, and we'll have these trainings for those folks, and so often it's adults who have not been able to open a Bible in years because of how triggering and scary it is, and like, really understandably so. And the way that this is a way that a lot of these folks can hear these stories again without the triggers. And I think for me that's what that means is being able to see them and myself re-engage with scripture in a way that doesn't feel threatening. And I think you say it, have said it so much, the mystery, making friends with mystery. I remember, which is a lovely phrase and way to say it. I remember when I was first going into divinity school and thinking, gosh, like, just so excited because I was ready to be like, I'm ready to say whatever I had thought before is wrong because it opens up so much space of like what, what could be, and how I think there's a joy in that space of entering scripture with curiosity. And that's something that godly play does. And that's the gift. The gift for me in scripture is permission to be curious and to let it be a mystery.

Monica: So there is definitely a joy and a gift in it. For some people it is very destabilizing to try to enter into a place where what they thought was concrete, what they thought was black and white, is now full of mystery. Mm. And so it's a gift that has to be kind of introduced very gently for some folks. I've seen it really throw people off their game in a significant way. I mean, 'cause when you're in prison, you don't have the things that you used to have to identify you, you know, to build your own identity. And so if you've built your identity around, you know, this is my understanding, you know, I'm a fundamentalist. I believe in XYZ. And then somebody comes along and says, Well, let's let's let's explore that. Yeah, that can be tough for some people.

I'm thinking of one individual in particular who was actually one of the men who came around that table with me when I told the creation story and wanted to be part of Godly Play. And I'm remembering how he was so shaken at some of the things we talked about not being what he thought they were. Yeah. That, you know, from week to week I wasn't sure if he was gonna come back to the conversation. But then, you know, more than a year later, seeing him come out on the other side and saying to me, like, you know, that what I've been trying up until now hasn't been working and I'm ready to try a new way. It was a really beautiful moment to see that he was ready to be childlike, to be open to something new, to be open to exploring.

Danny: One more question, but yeah, I think, Monica, one of the things I really appreciate about you and enjoy in our friendship is how joyful you are and how serious you are. You are serious about joy. You're serious about these things; you're serious about love, about justice. I would love to hear you tell me, tell us. What is serious joy to you?

Monica: So serious joy is I'll use that word again- authentic. It's authentic joy. It's it's not it's not blowing smoke. Serious joy is- I'm searching for the right words. It's not to discount the bad things in life and just focus on the good. But to embrace all of life and to appreciate all of it and to choose to celebrate it. I've seen that kind of joy in men on death row, not because they thought they were gonna get out, not because they thought they weren't going to, you know, see their sentences carried out, but because they reached a place of peace. Because they knew what was coming and knew who they were going to. And so they were ready to embrace what was coming. That is serious joy to me. It's not the kind of joy that you lightly covet. You don't sign up for it; you just discover it.

Danny: Thank you. Yeah. I gave you some tough ones today, because I knew you could handle them, so thank you so much for doing this, for being here with us. And just, yeah, yeah, really who you are. You hold a lot of space. Space for hope and faith, hope and love for a lot of people, including us at St. Mary's, so thank you so much. Great to see you.

Monica: Thank you.

Danny: Peace.

Monica: Thanks.

Flo: All right, peace.

Danny: Thank you for listening to another episode of Blessed Uncertainty. Special thanks to Kyle Locke for producing, his brother Adam Locke for our logo, and Jay Lynn for our theme music.