Episode 8 - Children’s Development with Reverend Flo

[0:00:00] FLO: Welcome to Blessed Uncertainty. We are your hosts, Danny and Flo. We are wrapping up our first season on children's spirituality and I am going to talk a little bit about what I'm learning in my master's program on human development and the intersection of children's development and spirituality. A content warning, we briefly discuss suicide towards the end of this episode. and the emotional and mental tool it can take to try to make the world a better place for everyone, including children.

[0:00:34] DANNY: Hey everybody, good to be back with you for our last episode, our last conversation of season one talking about children's Spirituality, I am going to begin today by interviewing Mother Flo. to interview. She knows what she's talking about.

[0:00:55] FLO: Flo, welcome. Good to see you. Thank you. Good to see you too. It's good to be back. It's been a little bit since we've done this. Yeah. I mean we'll get into the interview. This is the first question. How's it been? We're wrapping up season one. I've had a good time. Yeah, yeah. Me too. And I started taking over some of the production so I've been listening. to the last few episodes and editing and it's been really sweet to listen back and be like, "Wow!" was a really cool conversation or you know I think anybody with a pot, well hopefully. not everybody with a podcast, but people with maybe a soul in a podcast might be like... Which is a declining number. And so it was neat to listen back and be like, "Yeah, I think it matters."

[0:01:41] DANNY: Yeah. And you're not just talking about podcasts when you say that. I think one of the things can I oh I'll compliment us here at the beginning. I've been a guest occasionally on podcasts and you and certainly no one. "Owe It's Me Anything" when I go on their shows. but you can really tell who read the book. Right. Which is great, but you know when the first question is, "Well, I haven't read it. Tell me what it's about." This is gonna be fun than I thought. Yeah, I think you and I have read all of these books or spent time in these places and I love that we kind of just get to have a real conversation. with folks and maybe not the... the canned. thing that might be set on every other podcast. Which brings me to merch. Just kidding. We don't. We don't have. There are two of those in existence and Flo and I are taking offers. If you're just listening, you can't see our mug. We'll make it good. Oh, right. I do have a mug with our logo.

[0:02:51] FLO: I think I had staples make. So if you want your own, this is my Christmas present. Thank you.

[0:02:58] DANNY: And my dog Layla is playing fetch with herself right now. So if you hear rumbling. A tennis ball bouncing it's later Well, can you tell folks what you're studying right now?

[0:03:14] FLO: Sure. Sure. I can try. So a few years ago... I have gone back to school to get my Master of Divinity, which I think is a funny-- the squeaky toy in the background is-- I know. I was wondering if you could hear that. I may mute. No, it's pretty great. The Master of Divinity. Squeak, squeak. Because I don't-- believe you can really master anything, let alone divinity. But! It was a life-changing experience and I'm so thankful for that theological grounding and foundation and... n And I went to-- like divinity school, not necessarily a seminary. So it wasn't like one denomination. It was more an academic look, scholarly look at. the Bible and the Christian faith and all kinds of things and it was so helpful. And while I was there, I remember one of the things that was not helpful was as somebody who wanted to be a children's priest and write for parents and about children's spirituality, there was like not a single class about children. Like... children spirituality. There was an optional, I did get to do like a A class that was like a travel class over the summer to a place called Haley Farm in Knoxville and it's Alex Haley, the author of Roots. It's like his... Farm and Legacy and the Children's Defense Fund. has like meetings there and retreats there and so I got to do that as part of my MDiv and that was really the closest thing to children's spirituality that I got. and And it was so valuable and important because it was mostly about how we need to educate and feed children, which I think is like... part of spiritual care for children. They are fed. Can you defend that, please? But it was great. It was a great experience. But anyway, all that to say, no classes about how to engage with a child's existential wondering or grief or questions um A lot of the people who go through the MDiv program are on their way to be chaplains, even children's chaplains, and there was... no class about children's chaplaincy. And I just kept thinking like, and there's. you know you You can go be, like do your field ed and field work at a Children's Hospital, but. There's not the in the classroom discussion of what the capacity children have or what they're thinking about or the developmental stuff. which I increasingly found more important. and wanted more of. And so at the end of my divinity school time in my thesis, part of my thesis I wrote about how we need more of that education and how cool it would be if there was like a bridge from the divinity school to like the psychology and education department and human development. And so as I was looking to fill these gaps, because I thought I have the theology side and I need the children's development. side. I wanted to apply to this master's program. of education, child studies, human development. And so it's like the bridge I wish existed. in divinity school and kind of just cobbling together, but now I'm doing the second Masters in Child Studies and it's all about human development and I'm taking a class right now called Moral and Social Reasoning and it's about... how children make moral judgments and how they come to... develop that sense of morality and what does that mean and is it all innate or are there outside influences and all of that kind of stuff and so I primarily wanted to study this just because I wanted to know. How to present. face or come alongside children in their spiritual journey in a way that was not... that was developmentally appropriate. and not harmful and It doesn't seem like a question. that is asked. in no fundamentalist evangelical spaces. but even some mainline. progressive spaces. It's not really. part of the evaluation of what we're telling kids.

[0:07:51] DANNY: That reminds me, and to let everybody know, I got to read a paper that you just wrote for that class, I'm guessing.

[0:07:59] FLO: for my first, it was for my first like. child psychology.

[0:08:04] DANNY: Okay. Gotcha. But it feels like it very much fits with what you just described, the class of morality and development. It seems like... development is not given much. attention when curriculum are being written. for kids.

[0:08:24] FLO: Totally. So that has been my experience looking or trying to find a curriculum to use with kids. M. It seems like... what takes precedence is just like, "Well, this is what the biblical story is." Or, "This is what is in the children's Bible." Or, "This is what's in the Bible." And so we just tell this to kids. not the question of Is this even appropriate to tell kids or will they understand the way, you know, we understand it because we're adults, like whatever lesson. we might try to present, but is it really a lesson or a... we might idea. children can comprehend and is it one that we want them to comprehend? Yeah, right.

[0:09:15] DANNY: Lacey Finburgot, one person who we were able to... Talked to you this season, we got to hear her speak about a week ago, two weeks ago. And she talked about how in every adult there remains a child spirituality. but in a child there is no adult spirituality. And so we always defer. to the child in our conversations and our accompanying of them. I think as you say that, it just, we don't want to give them the adult spirituality. before it's time or before they can developmentally understand it, which maybe none of us ever do. Right. Or so they can develop their own as they.

[0:09:56] FLO: age. that's not age that's imported imported imported imported imported

[0:10:01] DANNY: Uh huh, little boxy when we tried to... put them into one. Can you speak to the harm that when we ignore developmentally appropriate.

[0:10:15] FLO: Yeah, spaces. Well, and this actually goes back to my first paper I wrote, but what kind of unlocked this box for me was the idea of prayer. with children and my MDiv thesis was about the ethics of prayer and around especially a child that might be in the hospital setting. either you know, they might be sick themselves or have a relative or parent that has like a terminal illness. and praying and praying and praying and win Christians. pray for healing in front of those kids or say, let's just pray for mommy to get better. You know, in my own experience, having. lost my dad and sister to cancer and having that have been part of. kind of just the atmosphere of like, if you just pray hard enough. or well enough or then kind of doing the gymnastics of like... Well, God didn't answer the prayer, but that person is still healed in heaven. You know, like that kind of language.

[0:11:23] DANNY: Here's your next paper.

[0:11:28] FLO: and I met with a... hospital chaplain at children's chaplain and was telling her talking to her about this because it just made me so uncomfortable. to be, you know, my niece. was at the time her mom had terminal pancreatic cancer, which has like a 5%. like survival rate and hearing folks pray around her. I just remember feeling this protectiveness of like, I might not have like felt it for my own child self until I saw that for her like to be like, like I know what happens in my own. heart which was like you know Guilt that did my prayers work a lifelong existential wondering of of god and god's like ability to listen and what does God intervene in and all of those questions which I know are questions people have anyway but one of the things that Amanda Borcik, this... Chaplin I spoke with. One of the things she said was when children pray and their prayers are not. answered how They hope. They don't actually blame God, like an adult might just go straight to blaming God. They blame themselves. And so understanding that that can even be a possibility. Like I think even if it's a small percentage of kids who feel that way, which it's. probably probably probably probably Most children would feel that way but even if it was like a small contingency. What is good for the- that small percentage is good for everyone. And what's bad for that small percentage is bad for everyone. So how can we... better Align our spiritual practices with children's development And. Not harm them psychologically, which feels like a low bar but um in a lot of the Christian spaces I think there's just such a discounting of development and psychology and like, "Oh no, but like this theology and spirituality will override that." When our psychological and emotional well-being is deeply tied to spirituality. Like those things are like... tied together

[0:13:44] DANNY: And a story is coming back to me when I was, gosh, probably four years old. I had these like... bombs on my head? um I don't... who knows these bumps, but like they were prayed for in the cult that I grew up in and the bumps went away. this point in my life. I don Thank God, probably healed those bumps. And if God did, it didn't have anything to do with the creepy old man that prayed for me. - Right. But I have a friend who left the cult long before I did and we were talking about that story and he made the joke. He went, yeah, I'm glad I wasn't healed 'cause I'd probably still be there. You could also connect something positive to that you're not ready to process. Yeah. Yeah, I never thought about it that way. No, that's true. Those damn bumps kept me in the hole. Probably like four to six years longer than I would have been there. I would trade it all for it. I'd take the bumps back. Yeah. Yeah, that space. And another thing you wrote about that leads me to the chaplaincy space, the prayers, just the limits of language. And this gift of children when we talked to Christine she talked about With her work as a primatologist, she's learned to communicate non-verbally with... different animals and the gift that that's been for her in raising her child. And like almost dreading when words become part of it. because of losing something so... I don't know if innocent is the right word, but something. As soon as we start to speak, we... ironically, you're probably losing meaning. In those places where there are limits of language, can you help people? become more comfortable with that? Or how can we step into those limits and receive those with joy?

[0:15:39] FLO: Something that's helped me with that space is and kind of this is like hitting two different points, but going back to the curriculum piece. is um At St. Mary's for several years we've used godly play so that's that'll come up in this conversation. So godly play is like a methodology. like a Montessori based way. of presenting sacred stories to children so that they can engage in their own meaning making. and still be hearing like these. these sacred stories of the Hebrew Bible and of the New Testament and of God and God's people, but it's not, they're not told in a way. that feels very-- that feels very-- that didactic or even like moralistic or even like... having to accept it as literal or true. They're told in a way. They that's very accessible for children and very play-based and developmentally and cognitively appropriate. And there's time for wondering. And so sometimes... That is like the time where we kind of play with these ideas and with some of the language and you know one of the questions we ask in those stories is I wonder if we can leave anything out of this story and still have all the story we need. Remember we were doing a baptism story with a baby doll and a child was like, let's take out the baby. And so like, but like to have a physical to have this physical story. She was able to take the baby out. She and then look. and kind of enter into that story in a way that was beyond words. Like she might not have had the language to say like why does everyone have like why would the baby need to get baptized? But I think that might have been what she was asking. And we could take it, take out the baby and still talk about the light of Christ that is with us all and how that matters. And I mean, we were able to enter into this. great conversation. um And even if we aren't, it's like I don't need to know what's going on in her mind that like she needed to take that out and like look at it. I don't know that that would have been possible if we were just telling a story. Like she wouldn't have... said let's take out If I told her that, you know, maybe... we can get into this too. Maybe I would say tell the story of Noah's Ark. And that question... Maybe. Yeah. It's not up to that paper. And we would ask that question, what can we take out? And maybe someone would say like the flood. the water like and that would be an opportunity to say like do we need this story? Or like, what does the story mean? And I think that there's a way that that offers that goes beyond. language that I have found very very helpful and then understanding that sometimes through their play and through them moving the pieces. they're able to express something as existential that They can't. in words

[0:18:58] DANNY: and that you're not anxious about it. To have a pastor as a child or as an adult who isn't anxious when somebody says, "Can we take the baby out? Can we take the wrath out? Can we play with these things?" It admits that it's more than we can understand. And that the person who's accompanying me here isn't anxious. I think of you and I both got to... go see Brandi Carlisle a couple weeks ago in her story of... being told she can be baptized and then being grilled. about sexuality in witchcraft right before she's going out to be baptized in that moment back to baptism. And that guy was like, if you read her book, he's so clearly. full of anxiety and wants to baptize her but knows he can't. And just that when we're anxious about words with children or adults. We pass that along and I think ultimately believe that God is anxious. which when I taught elementary school, probably the... Lesson I taught more than anything was that the most repeated... command in the Bible is don't be afraid. God can't be anxious if that's what God wants for us and so to not be afraid to bring our questions or to bring even if it's like I would like that part to be out of it. There's just like if God is like oh shoot.

[0:20:27] FLO: Thinged.

[0:20:28] DANNY: Is it the gig is up or is the jig is up? I've never All right, it's a gift for Jeff. Nobody says that. Yeah, but man that gift of words not being Enough is enough. Enough is enough There's a lot of freedom. in that space, at least in my experience. um My daughter, often she'll go. If she can feel us not agreeing, she'll go, "In my opinion." Just throw that in, which is such a great little thing to throw in. In all of this space, there is this innate. Children's spirituality just yes connection to all thing you write about the consciousness of children and adults being communal and relational. And then also about... That doesn't have to be religious. Like that. religion, tradition, ritual, it can actually help. It can. Can you talk about consciousness being relational, communal, and how religion, contrary to popular belief, could actually help?

[0:21:34] FLO: Yes. Well... something that's kind of developed in the last couple of decades really is like a more a willingness in these more academic spaces in the world of psychology to explore children's spirituality, even to recognize like spirituality. as another part. of human development, like another dimension. Like so there's like physical, emotional, cognitive, and spiritual is like a part of our development. in, I learned while I'm writing this paper that in 1989, the UN, I don't even know what you want to call it, but they basically said they convened and decided that children's development of the spiritual dimension of a child, like spiritual development in children is a innate human Right. And... That does not mean. Christian spiritual formation or any other kind. Like it's the spirituality, the definition of spirituality that's pretty broadly accepted is someone's connection to themself and to others and to something. greater than themselves. I... we'll call that God, I'll call that the sacred. A lot of kids kind of experience that outside.

[0:22:58] DANNY: or

[0:23:00] FLO: somewhere that's like inspiring awe. So any of those places is where that kind of sacred... connection happens. And for sure, religious. faith traditions and faith practices. can like help. Kids love ritual. Kids love these kinds of things that we can develop to help in that space. It doesn't have to be Christian. The term for spirituality just means any bigger connection to each other. to the world. to something bigger than ourselves and which really connects us all. and When I look at is this religious practice positive or negative? all kind of look at it through the lens of is it promoting a positive connection? for a child with themself? Is it strengthening that? sense of self and who they are. that they know they're good and loved. Like is that... being reinforced. Is the connection between other people? a positive connection that's being reinforced, like how we treat every human with dignity and love. and does it reinforce a positive connection with? God. And I know that, you know, people can kind of work their way around this argument if they wanted to, but if the curriculum or the practice is not presenting God... all loving and welcoming and if it introduces especially the idea of like a punitive god or a surveilling God, which we can get into in a little bit. Like then it's not-- good spiritual practice because it does not promote healthy spiritual flourishing. Like if it doesn't connect well, if it doesn't promote a positive sense in all three of those areas. then I kind of Question it.

[0:24:57] DANNY: And then at that point, religion is not helpful. Like when that becomes what they go to receive on Sunday. Let the little children come to me. After you tell them, they're worthless. After you tell But when they're old enough to understand. I think This past Sunday, as you were talking, we had a baptism. at St. Mary's. Before the baptism, the kids are in godly play with you. You bring the kids in. and they gather around the baptism. Joy on their faces, sitting on the floor, you know, right in front of us baptizing. this child and then they go to the pray ground together. So they've wondered together, they've watched a baptism, they've welcomed somebody into this community. (buzz They go and pray. play together in the in the playground We receive communion together. And then... one of those kids that I'm thinking of specifically. served the grape juice during communion to the kids who aren't ready for wine. Some kids are very ready. They enjoy the wine quite a bit, but they dip a wafer in the wine. - Right. So then this little guy... serves the grape juice to people and has this fully present. doing what the adults are doing. And then this little girl that I saw walk into Godly Play and do all of that. sees this little boy in the hallway and says we can go to the playground and that Like, that's just good. And all in a context where there are always two adults in the room. We're guarding their safety and their dignity and their... play and I don't want to like you know that's not a go St. Mary's but it really just trying to speak to how simple it is to just let them be who they are. And then I would say Isaiah 11, follow them. rather than... saying well now it's time to you can form

[0:27:00] FLO: Exactly. And even remembering that some of the things that were said in the room during the godly play story because I told the story of the baptism with the big doll. And I couldn't hear this because I was, we sit in a circle and I was telling a story and there's somebody who sits back by the door. She couldn't hear it. And she said like a four-year-old, I'm like talking and telling the lesson and it's so very, It's not like a fundamentalist telling of a Bible story. Like it's like it's very wondering and you know like The Spirit of God goes where it will and like the light you receive on your back, you know, is is with you forever. And I think it's so sweet. And she. leaned over and whispered to someone like, "I don't know if I agree with that belief." And she's for me.

[0:27:54] DANNY: And-- I can't confirm or deny that I'm not being related to this person. It's like deep, deep in-- the genetics.

[0:28:05] FLO: And then, you know, one of the lines is, you may have experienced this or we lit this light when you were baptized or when you will be baptized. And another, you know, I said, "I haven't been baptized in..." I don't know if I

[0:28:21] DANNY: Yeah.

[0:28:23] FLO: Who is a child who was supposed to be baptized one day? and got up to the front and was like, never mind. And so-- Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. We trust kids. We let them have autonomous ideas and... thoughts and

[0:28:43] DANNY: It really is fun. I've heard that. Just that phrase, "Be a non-anxious presence." so many times. So many times. There's a lot of freedom in it for us too, I think, to not be. afraid. in those sacred spaces.

[0:29:02] FLO: I'm Kinkai. I was thinking about this recently because I also teach at a school with a bunch of preschoolers and sometimes they can get squirrely. Very swirly and um And I was thinking about how... I think I'm more anxious in a room of adults who are like try. I mean, I know. I'm more anxious in a room full of adults who think they know stuff. who are like well. the bible says this or like whatever the thing might be than I am or even in a group of adults that's just like too serious about whatever it is, then I am the kids who are rolling around on the floor. when I'm trying to tell the story. Like I feel so much less anxious. in that space because they're just being who they are. Like I don't feel like I have to be on. It's like this agreement of like, you don't have to be on, I don't have to be on We are also like equals in that we are going to receive something different from the story and what you receive is not less important than what I receive.

[0:30:08] DANNY: say this Oh, give it Matty's qualifier in my opinion. I think anytime. We say we know. like no with certainty We're pretending.

[0:30:20] FLO: Yeah. Yeah

[0:30:21] DANNY: I don't I don't think we know. Anything? Science, right? Like nothing is... Yeah. there are probabilities. I probably know this. I probably can have some certainty about this, but even in the... Predictability in science is not absolute. It's a prediction and probable. um and remind that it's you. describe what you're just describing, the killer's line. I think it's from all these things that I've done, the lyric, you know you don't know, you don't, you don't. Like I just, because that discomfort with everybody being certain. I think is a discomfort and... opinion I don't want to say this for you but it's a discomfort with pretense. which is absolutely required to be in the room when the room is full of certainty because it's You know you don't know you don't you don't in the way children lead us out of that.

[0:31:18] FLO: is a great

[0:31:20] DANNY: gift. that is like oh gosh who Lacey, when she was speaking, she talked about the possibility that kids... adults won't volunteer with kids. because of not being able to handle the vulnerability. That's so sad. and another moment to pause and say let's make sure we don't give them an adult spirituality. to soon too early which yeah That's a, I mean, you can talk about that for days the which but let's talk about life way instead um you spent some time with some curriculum that i'm guessing you're not We're not going to bring in the St.

[0:32:09] FLO: We're not sponsoring this episode.

[0:32:13] DANNY: in the life as I read your paper this idea it was just so succinctly Wisely put. kids are told how awful they are.

[0:32:23] FLO: Mm-

[0:32:25] DANNY: while also being told you can't be baptized. because you can't understand yet. So just reinforcing you're terrible, you're awful. born this way. Kinda not your fault, 'cause a guy did something a long time ago. But it's also your fault. And can I do something about this? Well, not yet, 'cause you can't understand. Can they not understand how wretched they are? Can they not understand? Grace, like what? Even this desire, like I'd like to be, like, "Oh, sorry."

[0:32:59] FLO: Yeah, no. I don't even know if I have a question but the... No, that life-threatening path. Putting those things together was so... Right. Because that denominationally like they don't yes, so they don't Yes, so they don't Baptize infants. They don't baptize until they can articulate/understand, but they're expecting them to understand. that they are sinners that need to make a decision for Christ. to be saved and this was like in the pre-k curriculum. And this is for their VBS, their Vacation Bible School curriculum. that tens of thousands of people go to every year. And so this is like matters because it's like a huge exposure. to so many kids and in their like director guide it's like Expected, encouraged. that children as young as I mean like four will make a decision. Christ by the end of the five days of vacation.

[0:34:09] DANNY: 4 year old

[0:34:10] FLO: four year olds. Yeah. Which. It's so problematic on, I mean, I can't even, there's so many layers to it, but like even before getting into the like the cognitive developmental side, like when I was in my MDiv program. Focusing on the story of Mark 10 and Jesus blessing the children and saying that they have inherited the kingdom of heaven. Like it's all like I've used this phrase a lot but it's already theirs. Like the kingdom of heaven is already theirs. So why do they need to? Theologically doesn't even make sense that profit margins I think is it Love what they put in their crayons. Yeah. Sorry. In my opinion. In my opinion, yeah. But yeah, theologically... I've written extensively and researched extensively about this and I mean like it makes intuitive sense. It's nice that it also makes theological sense. But it also doesn't always line up. But on a cognitive developmental level, like Kids? I wrote about this a little in my paper and I'll try to like bear with me with some of the sciencey stuff but there's this developmental peace with children called theory of mind and it's develops kind of between like five and seven where kids are able to understand that other people or have different information than they do. You know, somebody was in a class was telling an example of like a kid like looking at a TV up close. and assuming like blocking the whole tv but because they knew what was going on assuming that anyone in the room would know because you can't there can't be different information in different people's brains and so they studied this with kids and what they thought God knew. So there's the study of God's omniscience. Like, can God know everything? and There was so much. we can get into, but one of the pieces. is that that's not like they're such concrete literal thinkers like the idea of salvation. and wrath and hell and this abstract god like that does not A kid isn't gonna even hear that the same way an adult hears it. which is probably on one hand better. Because in this study that we that we that I read they wanted to find out if kids thought that God could see when they did. things or good things and if they thought God also knew what other people were doing. And it was so interesting because they tended to believe the younger kids, they believed God could see them doing Good things? but not bad things. And the bad things would be like they ask them questions like would you tell your mom a lie or would you like take some, you know, all these things. and-- [AUDIO OUT And so the kids, kids really like... buckle down more on if God can see everything, God can see me do good things but not bad things. And they were... chalk that up to like wishful thinking, which is like, that's what a kid hopes is true. And Mike. If I'm like What does that say about adults? And like, how can we learn from kids? And if kids are the recipients of the kingdom? and their hoping. and their hoping They are believing that God does not surveil them in a... Punitive. I'm watching to be able to punish you for doing something bad. What does that say to the rest of us?

[0:37:52] DANNY: And if we... One of the reasons I was drawn to this tradition that we serve in is this idea that we become what we worship.

[0:38:00] FLO: And if you're...

[0:38:02] DANNY: telling kids how bad they are every week. You will believe children are bad. Witch And then it is not a large leap to lock kids up in cages. - Right. It's not a large leap to separate them from their families because you can't repeat something over and over and over again and not. Even if you don't want to believe it, it will get in. And those are not, you know, these aren't just conversations. They're realities right now. And I think... Epstein list like all this stuff like it is a hatred of children it seems like yeah is extra I don't know if I can say that. It's just this hatred of children, whether it's the vulnerability. you know, you can point to religious spaces and non-religious spaces for that hatred. But... currently in our nation. I don't think we can separate this from what is allowed to happen to children. in the name of God. And I would even say, it's hard to even get out, but in the name of Jesus. Just. awful and This isn't. harmless. They're a real violent. They're a Deathly consequences to these things. Thanks for coming to bless it uncertainty. I'm reminded of Santa Claus too. Like at least he gives presents. Rain! It's like yeah, he watches us but we're gonna get stuff probably the killer's eye. This is like Maybe the killers will. sponsor our show today, but they have a Christmas album that just explores how sick. the psychology of Santa Claus is. - Oh my gosh. - It's just, it's like, oh my gosh, it's amazing. And it just, Santa follows this kid and they have a rivalry and-- Sorry. Too far. We'll email us at admin@pussitinsurgity and I'll tell you the name of the song. It's just, it's too re- ah. Maybe we'll keep this in or not. I mean, there's a song.

[0:40:22] FLO: Don't shoot me Santa Claus.

[0:40:26] DANNY: and... the gun violence again in our country and what we give to children who are told how awful they are and we take their innocence. There is... a wine and I think as funny as that album is that song is like tragically relevant. for the for what hate becomes. Which back to Jesus if you have hate in your heart? You are guilty of murder, you know? Like this is, and if you hate children, it is a matter of time before. being enacted on them. Have you heard the most, I, a therapist, has told me this. A friend of mine is a therapist. That the most violent day of the year, there are more... domestic violence calls on Super Bowl Sunday than any other day. Oh my gosh. which yeah to explore that psychology. the nationalism, the football, the entertainment. D Is it all just a beer commercial? Alcohol consumption day. let daddy watch the game environment. There's just a lot of things. You excited about the NFL season starting Wednesday night? My brains are floating away. Sorry. I wish I would have never liked sports. I'd be so much happier. Got any questions from me? I'll say one of the things I wrote to Dan while you were speaking was this like... The kids have this concrete. view of the world They have this literal view of the world and they think that people are good. Which what if What ejects the position? to the concrete concrete concrete concrete concrete literal view of scripture that adults have and then that its people are bad. It's just, yeah, I mean, you know, like there's a narrow road and a broad road and... I think it's evident that the Broad Road is the condemnation. hmm And the narrow road is seeing the innocence in another person.

[0:42:44] FLO: or we didn't even or get to this yet but the Catechism

[0:42:48] DANNY: Like it. Oh no. Yeah.

[0:42:51] FLO: Which I never knew growing up. Like I... learn that. Yeah, same. After I moved to the south. um and reformed churches uh the the broadly used Catechism and this is like very like pre-reading children are expected to memorize this like these questions the answers to these questions Actually, so I'll read one of the questions. What does every sin deserve? And the answer is... The Wrath and Curse of God.

[0:43:24] DANNY: 4 year old.

[0:43:25] FLO: And... and along with that this teaching that I grew up with that was saying like all sin is the same. And so I think I used to think like I used to think there was a good intention about that? Your sin's not worse than anybody else's, but then if you think about it, they're saying like a kid... hiding a cookie in their room is like. the same as someone who's in the Epstein file. It's like that's what they're saying. We just feel that.

[0:43:59] DANNY: At the end of the day, God is stupid. If that's true. Right. 'Cause anyone on this earth who would say that, you'd be like... That's dumb. N.

[0:44:12] FLO: And so that in the kid's mind, if they even understand the idea of sin or somebody's told them that. they're thinking like you know, I took this cookie without asking, which I'm learning even developmentally. They don't even have like that's Their egos, like this is not, they're growing, their moral development is growing. Like this isn't even like... They're not out there manipulating the world and trying to like pull a heist by stealing a cookie out of the kitchen. They're just like, that looks good. I don't know. But anyway, they're in a child's mind to be like, well, that action-- caused Jesus to die on the cross. Connecting that. I don't know any other word than it just feels so evil. to tell a little child. The Jesus that says you are already part of... God's kingdom. God's kingdom. need you. To first say you're sorry. for your child's sins. because that's what put him on the cross. and then he'll open the gate for you. Like that's like what that's saying

[0:45:20] DANNY: reminds me. I... problems with ice cream and when I take that first bite the carton is in danger and I think that is like American Christians with Trump. It's like, well, we went this far. And I think that's connected to the Allsons are the same. And so. Mm hmm. There's like, well, you know, well, he's just a businessman. I mean, I've received texts, not so much anymore. Like, definitely not anymore. But there. free Like first Trump term. I would get texts with articles of him being a family man. um Not a lot. but Too many. But just that space of like, it's all the same, he does stuff. you know and um He's a family man or he's just a businessman and you take the economics away from the cross and what Jesus is a threat to actually for Rome. and the powerful in Israel and... You make it about little children being terrible. Again, just an absolute recipe for disaster. Which one of the things? I noticed this season is... I would say most of our guests. had pretty significant. childhood trauma I think you and I would add ourselves to that list. And I do believe that one of the reasons I chose this space for work was I was revisiting trauma and I was like trying to work out like just These are the places the worst things happened to me and I just think we're drawing back to those places we need. For better or worse, it's just part of nature and I feel like the people who were farther away. from growing up in this American evangelical. setting. have a lot less baggage in these spaces and are able to just connect. without that So for adulation and self-hatred, I-- [AUDIO OUT I don't know, like, and I feel like this is a transition to our grief for Ryan Stoller, who we met and... One of the most powerful books I read last year and it's called The Kingdom of Children. children's liberation theology we had ryan on I think this is okay to share because he was very public about it. His own trauma, I think a lot of his work seemed to be returning to that trauma. I think it was three or four months ago Ryan took his own life and made it clear that that was connected to a lot of the trauma and just I guess one of the things in this child spirituality space is just a reminder that... We do tend to return to it. and even this like leaning into receiving all of this like a child. is such a necessary part. to the returning. I know I have a pretty strong... advocate advocate Gene in me and I think a lot of this space even us the work you're doing us choosing this season to start on these topics. Just a reminder like man if you are traumatized by all of this it's okay to step away. It's a don't. You don't have to go to church. You don't have to read the Bible. God's not anxious. God, my gosh, if. God doesn't. have compassion for those places, I'm certainly not interested. man But it's okay. Like, you know, D.L. Mayfield, it was really fun to talk to them and just. It's okay. Like step away. Don't cram yourself into this. And I've certainly had to get a lot of help for that trauma. and just yeah i hope it's An okay thing to add to all of these conversations like you don't have to be the justice seeker if it's too much. I mean, seek justice.

[0:49:34] FLO: that you might not have to do that in these religious Christian spaces. You don't have to fix the system. Even, you know, I go into this place sometimes of like, why? if this is the potential. Why even introduce kids to any idea? of God at all. um but learning through a through these classes and through my experience with kids and especially learning from chaplains in the chaplaincy space because that's where it comes up so much is like kids with terminal illness. already even even if people aren't telling them things. They're having in like innate questions about what is out there and is there a um Divine or sacred presence with them and will that be with them? Even. after this earth. Like they think about that and they want to talk about it. And some of the places I've heard of the most profound stories are in the hospital where a kid has heard a parable. They see this story. that touches on these existential wonderings with these like tangible physical pieces and they're able to articulate those questions. I read about like the mission of I think Vanderbilt Children's Spiritual Care Team is... is to help. help families make their own meaning in their own way. like help them come to terms with what's happening, to help them... not necessarily make sense of, like this is why this is happening, but to make meaning as far as this is... there is some existential thing happening and what does it look like for you and what questions do you have and what helps? your anxiety in those spaces. Like those are like spiritual questions. And so to have spiritual care. spiritual care. Spiritual is very, very important. And so I wouldn't want that to be totally erased. Only talk to them about it when they're older, but they're already thinking about it. Like that's the thing is like they might not be saying it, but

[0:51:36] DANNY: in ways that I wish we did. and hopefully access again. the limit of words again comes to mind. The limits of words. I think the, you know, like some expository preaching here, but like John 10, if you... chapters after John 6. I'm pretty sure it's John 6 where Jesus says... all that the father gives me are mine and I will not lose one of them. And then in John 10 talks about, I have other sheep who are not in this fold and I'm the good shepherd and I call each child my name and the comfort and imagine. turning John 6 into Calvinism. Which is like what that means is like since all that are gathered in his hand are never lost That means he created some people just to be lost. That gives him glory. Some of you are in, some of you are not. Like if it's not good news to a child, it's not good news. And just like if you would. Why would you not tell a child that in that situation? I think. back to trauma. Like if you wouldn't say it to somebody while it was happening... Don't say it after. It's not comforting and it's not true. It's not comforting certainly not good news and just again to be free of all those things. to know put our kids through it again. Like just don't be afraid. I think... I was with someone recently who... I think they're planting their like seventh church in Nashville. And the language used around it was...

[0:53:16] FLO: We just want to see this city invaded by the gospel. Ah.

[0:53:22] DANNY: in that probably kids lined up around the building going to Sunday school there. Yeah. to replicate this system. And if you, I would say like, I don't know if any of them would listen to this. two parts here. You're not bad people for doing this. There are bad people doing this. - Right. but I think of like The shame of being in it might be the thing that prevents somebody from leaving. being caught in that and just like You're not a bad person if you've taught your kid these things. Like I haven taught my kids these things. I taught at a PCA school for seven years, you know, a Bible class. Thank you. I hope that what I... taught them was that God loved them but I think I did but like it's still fine to get free. Like you can change your mind, but don't think it's harmless. to go to someplace telling your kids awful that they're awful. Right. Just because you want a church experience for them. Like, it's. that the information does matter. And I think like... honestly I would say like do not If you're an adult without children. Sure, go for the community. I would highly encourage you to stop giving it money. Because for one reason what it's doing to children, but man if you've got kids in those spaces... If it's okay to say, like, just get out. It is not harmless. We're good. And to guard the innocence in them ultimately is to guard the innocence in ourselves. It's probably too long of a quote, but that Christian Weimann... Tell me. quote. He says, "to be innocent is to retain that space in your heart." that once heard a still small voice saying, "Not your name so much as your nature." and the wherewithal to say again and forever your wordless but lucid Your un-triumphant but absolute yes. He says you must protect this space so that it can protect you. and that all of this is good. Back to the conscious. the consciousness Being communal and relational. This is good for all of us. What's good for a child is good for... Everyone. Everyone. M? which reminds me so much of each person wave. gotten to spend time with in this first. Season, I have sort of a final question. and a prompt to our listeners and maybe to you and I as well. If you have time... look up Phoebe Bridger's performance on the Tonight Show with... an all-child band. Just an incredible. smile on her face. Enjoy what those kids playing with her. So last question, mother flow. If it's possible, can you pick a favorite lyric from... - VB's new album? - Oh. Oh, yeah. What do you mean? - Well, there's so many. I didn't know if you had one.

[0:56:34] FLO: Well, my favorite song on the new album is "Haunted." Which I know we both love. There's a couple of lines, but... The first line that I love is, "I have no secrets, only feelings, and I always go away." There's a difference between lying and deciding what not to say. that like really gets me and uh especially as like maybe an emotional... person. who struggles with like, I want to do the most authentic thing. and understanding that like That doesn't. have to mean saying everything. um That doesn't have to mean giving... pieces of my story or what I feel or what I think like away. So I love that one, but really I love... I love the end. You won't have to open a heart that's broken. Water's going to flow either way. and my heart is growing either way. I think back to even like meaning making. as someone you and I both experience loss and grief and trauma from a really young age. there's no part of I mean, I think I can speak for both of us. Neither of us would say like, it good that that happened or like we would like you know or there was a reason or any of those things. But, um... And at the same time, I know that if I hadn't... suffered the way I did particularly. I may not. doing what I'm doing with kids. That's connected. and it makes me think about Or maybe I would. Maybe that's the like water is going to flow in either way. Like I don't know what that means. But like thinking about the heart that's been broken. as this open vessel that's like able to let kind of like all of life happen and come through and the joys and the tragedies and and all of the parts of it. and not have to say it happened for a reason, but that is part of who we are.

[0:59:03] DANNY: Thank you. I don't know if I've shared this story before, but. our spouses. are very similar. Josh is Pho Spass and Rebecca is mine and we have gone out to dinner together before and Down to the substitutions, Josh and Rebecca have ordered the same thing. Yeah. And you and I have ordered the same thing down the trinks and frozen margarita or on the rocks. Yeah. I have the same favorite lyrics from the whole album. We need to have Josh and Rebecca listen to it and see if they have the exact same favorite lyrics on the album. Yeah, same and highly recommend that album and especially that. Jimmy Fallon. I'm not. I do not. I will never recommend you watch Jimmy Fallon again. But watch Phoebe Branson. Segment. On Jimmy Fallon. Well, and also we haven't talked about what we want to do. Uh, Brandy Carlisle.

[1:00:09] FLO: because she broke. Oh, right. kids up to sing or to dance hold out your hand.

[1:00:17] DANNY: Yeah, which she also said that. I saw her a few summers ago and she didn't do that song and she said she wasn't going to do it this time. but the kids made her. So if I had seen her twice and she didn't sing it, that's my favorite song of hers. thankful to the kids and the one little guy for my own like in the Setting that I grew up in like even kids wore suits and ties I did not typically do that. But, uh... there was a little guy in a suit and tie dancing on the stage. And I think, yeah, it got some tears from me, but just seeing a kid in a suit and tie, but free. and singing that song. with I think like maybe one of his parents was on. stage or it seemed like the kids had a connection to the band. Brandi Carl output. Yeah, that. that, that, that, that, That song and the kids jumping around was very beautiful. Well, anything else as we wrap up? this episode in this season?

[1:01:28] FLO: Hmm, I think I'm just thankful that this was... our first season and the value and importance of recognizing that children are human beings, like full people. going into any other like topic is is such a great way to start. Especially just thinking about our child's self and maybe what we didn't get and what... would have been different I'm excited. for our next season.

[1:01:57] DANNY: We are going to talk about salvation and sacrament. Just a sacramental way of life and what is salvation even as we talk about. children's consciousness and our consciousness being relational communal So much individual excited to have some guests. We've got a couple Come on people who have said yes. Everyone we reached out to for this season said yes. We would read a book and be like, I wonder if this person would come on. And they all did and really surprised some of the folks we got to meet and speak to. Can I say who I think the first? Cash Toys! Season 2 Dr. David Dark, our Nashville friend, is going to get us started. So he has said yes. We've got to get one more episode out. And then this one will come out. So we can say... Soon? I think by the time this one comes out, maybe we'll have talked with David. But really excited about season two and getting to talk with some new and old friends. that's salvation in sacrament. Thanks for doing this. This was... Really fun. And I wouldn't sell my mug. Keeping my Christmas present.

[1:03:12] FLO: Well, thanks for listening, everybody. We'll see you next time.

[1:03:18] DANNY: Thank you for listening to another episode of Blessed Uncertainty. Special thanks to Kyle Lough for producing, his brother Adam Lough for our logo, and Jay Lind for our theme music.

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